Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

Gandalf the White

46 (79.3%)

Dumbledore

10 (17.2%)

tie

2 (3.4%)

Total Members Voted: 58

[Xantalos]

People don't seem to understand what exactly Gandalf is

I understand what he is, it is just that... well... "Just because you are all that in your neighbourhood it doesn't mean you are Mr. Bigshot here"

Dumbledore is good in a universe where magic itself is a lot more impressive. Which translates into being godlike in the Lord of the Rings universe.

You do not get a pass just because you are considered "Hot stuff" in your own universe.

I agree; its like comparing Darth Vader with Superman. Sure, Vader is one of the most powerful characters in his universe, but Superman can just drop a mountain on him.

Although I still maintain that Dumbledore wouldn't have time to do anything; he would be disarmed immediately by Gandalf because Dumbledore's disarming spell is slower.

Fixed it for continuity.

[Neonivek]

I really don't think that will be what it will boil down to.

While Gandalf absolutely needs his staff to hit the higher reaches of his power. It isn't something Dumbledore even needs to touch.

Wands and staffs in Harry Potter are focusing devices. In Lord of the Rings they are closer to keys (Hense why losing it instantly defeats a wizard).

So even after a disable from Gandalf, Dumbledore loses next to no effectiveness as a wizard.

People tend to equate flashiness with quality, which is probably why modern fantasy is so shitty when it tries to emulate Tolkien. He knew what real magic was supposed to be. Subtle, imbued with nature itself.

Ohh yeah because magic in the past was never flashy.

One second as I talk to Odin with the Gram which is a weapon that can never miss and that can strike the earth in twain. Also there is Freyr with his giant flying ship and his mechanical boar.

[CJ1145]

Gandalf defeated a devil the likes of which struck down elf kings like they were dominoes. And that was in his weaker incarnation, which is also on record for doing things such as calling down lightning and blasting with enough force to smash his way through a sizable portion of a mountain, to get into Goblin Town. And Gandalf is frankly kinda weaker in the films than the books. And again, nobody seems to be understanding the fact that Gandalf's powers are explicitly limited in his role as one of the Istari. In truth he is far more powerful than what we ever see. So the fact that he's going toe to toe with Dumbledore in his wrinkly-ass mortal shell should be a good clue as to how fucked the other wizard really is.

I really don't think that will be what it will boil down to.

While Gandalf absolutely needs his staff to hit the higher reaches of his power. It isn't something Dumbledore even needs to touch.

You're seriously underselling how important wands are. Shit backfires hard without one most of the time.

And again, the staff is only important as his limited, wizard self.

[Darvi]

TL;DR: Arbitrary self-limitations and moral restrictions make this matchup hard to predict.

[Neonivek]

You're seriously underselling how important wands are. Shit backfires hard without one most of the time

It is more that in Harry Potter you need to learn specifically how to cast spells without a wand and that doing so is very difficult.

Something Dumbledore would have little problem performing (In fact he doesn't... most of the magic he performs in the series is without a wand). At least for the only spell that matters "Disarm!".

Dumbledore has feasable measure of attack without his staff.

Gandalf defeated a devil the likes of which struck down elf kings like they were dominoes

Now let me ask. When he did so was it to show how much more powerful he was then a devil?

OR was it meant to be a struggle?

Since I want to make sure we don't got villains are weak syndrome.

In truth he is far more powerful than what we ever see

Which we do not count as that isn't the Gandalf everyone is refering to. We are refering to Gandalf the Grey and Gandalf the White.

He has faced possible death without going super saiyan.

Arbitrary self-limitations and moral restrictions make this matchup hard to predict

Sometimes you just have to make a call. Are we allowing Gandalf to just go Super Saiyan?

[Darvi]

Why the hell not.

[Neonivek]

Why the hell not.

Usually people like to limit characters to what they would typically have and be able to do.

That way you don't get battles where Mario has an invincibility star.

[CJ1145]

It's more like denying Mario the Fire Flower.

[Darvi]

Wait that's silly if Mario's losing he always gets lightning and super-mushrooms and, yes, invincibility stars. If he gets none of those it means that he's winning anyway.

Wait did Mario just win the battle Dumbledore vs. Gandalf? Damn he's good.

[Neonivek]

Wait that's silly if Mario's losing he always gets lightning and super-mushrooms and, yes, invincibility stars. If he gets none of those it means that he's winning anyway.

Wait did Mario just win the battle Dumbledore vs. Gandalf? Damn he's good.

Actually... Yeah he did.

[SalmonGod]

Gandalf and the wizards are Maiar, but... there's some fuzziness to that.  They're different from other Maiar, and they are definitely bound to their physical bodies, which are ageless but can be killed.  I think it needs to be reiterated -- the only reason Gandalf came back from the dead was the direct intervention of Eru Illuvatar, the capital-g God of that universe. 

And Ungoliant was not a Maiar.  She seemed to be some anomalous being from the void beyond creation.

And Tolkien magic is impressive, but almost never immediately so.  It most often takes the form of influence that works slowly, but powerfully, over long periods of time.  When used on people or places, it slowly twists their forms and infects their minds over years.  It makes kick-ass items, but it imbues them with intrinsic properties, not the power to blow shit up.  That magical barrier that protected a kingdom was an obfuscation, not a forcefield.  I'd have to look it up when I get home to verify, but I'm pretty sure those pinecones Gandalf threw at the wargs only made bursts of sparks that set the fur of a couple wargs on fire.  They then pranced around in a panic spreading the fire around to each other.  He wasn't exactly throwing makeshift grenades, like many people now like to hype them up as.

In other words, combat-oriented magic is extremely rare in Tolkien's writing.  Lots of enchantment, illusion, divination, and strength of spirit stuff.  Very very little evocation.

[Xantalos]

As I like to think of it, villains in Tolkein are like this big mecha with steam punk galore, interlocking parts, stuff like that, it's unstoppable and all intimidating. However, wizards are the one splinter that comes out of nowhere and hits the mech in the exact right spot to make it explode spectacularly.

[CJ1145]

And Ungoliant was not a Maiar.  She seemed to be some anomalous being from the void beyond creation.

Ungoliant is even fuzzier than the nature of the wizards. There's conflicting documentation on what exactly she is, even in the Silmarillion as I'm reading through it.

[Neonivek]

As I like to think of it, villains in Tolkein are like this big mecha with steam punk galore, interlocking parts, stuff like that, it's unstoppable and all intimidating. However, wizards are the one splinter that comes out of nowhere and hits the mech in the exact right spot to make it explode spectacularly.

I think what you mean is that Villains are like huge mechas and Wizards are like buckets of water.

[Flying Dice]

It's more like denying Mario the Fire Flower.

Or denying Jackie Chan the use of his arms, legs, and whatever random objects he can find.


I also find it interesting that you're repeatedly insisting that Olórin's mortal shell being a big fish in LOTR doesn't equate to the same thing in HPverse, but haven't even considered the other way around. Not only is he powerful enough that he has to take on a weaker mortal form, but even in that form he is still powerful enough to do things beyond the strength of even the strongest wizards. CJ brought up a good point earlier: Olórin, in his mortal form, blew up a sizable portion of a mountain with lightning. He killed a Balrog in single combat while in the same mortal shell. There's nothing in HPverse that can compete with a Balrog as far as big, evil demons go.


Furthermore, you're relying far too much on disarming. Not only has it never been shown that Gandalf needs his staff to cast, but the disarming spell works by forcing the target to involuntarily release their wand. In other words, it doesn't just accelerate the weapon, but also forces the target to open their hand; if it didn't, hands would be broken left and right, even in training. I think that a Maiar likely has sufficient force of will to resist a compulsion like that.

All that aside, Maiar are also capable of disarming (or outright destroying) their opponent's weapon, and more importantly they don't need to wave his staff or mutter fake Latin to do so. Reference the fight between Gandalf and Saruman. They knock each other across the room with little or no effort, and Saruman disarms Gandalf by holding out his hand. Sort of like how Gandalf later broke Saruman's staff by doing the same thing.

Also reference the fight with the Balrog. After Gandalf falls, he retakes Glamdring, we never see that staff again after he drops it, and he later turns out to have killed the Balrog. Without. His. Staff. Incidentally, we also see him call down a bolt of lightning and charge Glamdring with it without so much as a glance.

So let's recount:
Powerful force pushes, calling down lightning, smashing a mountain open, killing a demon, firing a blast of something to drive off the Nazgul, and let's not forget the magic sword and fireworks. All that without incantations, often without a staff or any significant ritual, and that's just the skimmed bits off the top of my head.


Even for a mortal magic-user Gandalf is extraordinarily powerful. Mind you, Dumbledore isn't a pushover, but Gandalf is much closer to a high-level, efficiently min/maxed character (or, alternatively, Nanoha-tier) than Dumbledore is. Everything cited as a strength for Dumbledore (experience, casting without a focus, danger in the short-term) is also a strength for Gandalf but more so, and the latter also doesn't need any vocal incantations. And he has a magic sword that he can use to do Highlander impressions.

That said, they'd never fight, because either they're timeclones or Dumbledore is a fragment of Gandalf's soul that was lost when he died fighting the Balrog.