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[GreatWyrmGold]

I have this one friend who plays Team Fortress 2. We get into arguments about stuff fairly often. One we've gotten into a couple times has been about the Pyro class in TF2.

He claims it has no real weaknesses (claiming that the Flare Gun solves the range issue) and that my counterarguments are null and void because I rarely play (although I've read the wiki, the TV Tropes page, and other such material much more than he has).

Is he correct, and if not how could I convince him that he's wrong?

[Loud Whispers]

Halp! Medic!

[10ebbor10]

((Other games maybe?))

But just as a note, no class is really OP. (Oh, and a low damage low firerate and kinda hard to aim weapon doesn't make a good ranged projectile).

But at the risk of using fallacious arguments
      -Is it used overwhelmingly by Pubs?
      -Is it banned by pros?
      -Is it overpowered?

Same answer each time.

Halp! Medic!

Stab

[GreatWyrmGold]

((Other games maybe?))

Point taken.

But just as a note, no class is really OP.

Yet another thing I pointed out. If it was, Valve would (try to) fix it.

(Oh, and a low damage low firerate and kinda hard to aim weapon doesn't make a good ranged projectile).

He doesn't believe the "kard-to-aim" bit, but the low fire rate is a good point.

But at the risk of using fallacious arguments
      -Is it used overwhelmingly by Pubs?
      -Is it banned by pros?
      -Is it overpowered?
Same answer each time.

...Hm?

Halp! Medic!

Stab

Double hm?

[The Scout]

Pyro's one medium ranged weapon does very little damage compared to other classes, and most classes can gun you down. Soldiers can bounce you with rockets, demomen can just pipe you in the face as you run towards them, heavies literally gun you down, you'll have a hard time with engineer's sentries, medics syringe gun can out damage you because they can outrun you while running backwards, scouts can just avoid you, and spies can also run backwards with the base revolver(it hurts A LOT). The only person who can't really deal with pyros close range is sniper, and that's because he's a sniper.

[10ebbor10]

The sniper's SMG can output some damage, and I think he can run backwards fast enough.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Pyro's one medium ranged weapon does very little damage compared to other classes,

How should I counter his point that flare guns deal lots of damage to burning opponents?

Soldiers can bounce you with rockets, demomen can just pipe you in the face as you run towards them, heavies literally gun you down, you'll have a hard time with engineer's sentries, medics syringe gun can out damage you because they can outrun you while running backwards, scouts can just avoid you, and spies can also run backwards with the base revolver(it hurts A LOT). The only person who can't really deal with pyros close range is sniper, and that's because he's a sniper.

How could I counter the point he often brings up about airblasts letting pyros deflect rockets, grenades, sentry rockets, syringes, etc? (He brings that up a lot...)

[The Scout]

You have to hit them once to get them on fire, then again for another 90 damage. The long reload and the fact anyone not blind will dodge it makes it highly unlikely you'll kill anyone but unlucky snipers with it. You can't airblast syringes for one, and two, if you can't airblast and burn them. There's a significant delay between doing one then the other, and at close range they're fire rate will outdo your airblast rate.
Sentries have bullets too...

[Person]

The sniper's SMG can output some damage, and I think he can run backwards fast enough.

The sniper also has jarate as an option. The hunstman can also be quite effective, if they're not one of the few pyros skilled enough to reflect arrows. The smg is good though. If the pyro feels like airblasting you though, there's basically nothing you can do.

Pyro's one medium ranged weapon does very little damage compared to other classes,

How should I counter his point that flare guns deal lots of damage to burning opponents?

Soldiers can bounce you with rockets, demomen can just pipe you in the face as you run towards them, heavies literally gun you down, you'll have a hard time with engineer's sentries, medics syringe gun can out damage you because they can outrun you while running backwards, scouts can just avoid you, and spies can also run backwards with the base revolver(it hurts A LOT). The only person who can't really deal with pyros close range is sniper, and that's because he's a sniper.

How could I counter the point he often brings up about airblasts letting pyros deflect rockets, grenades, sentry rockets, syringes, etc? (He brings that up a lot...)

Anytime I see a pyro, I can just switch to the shotgun. You have to know the maps in order to not get stuck on walls while running backwards though. Also airblast doesn't work on syringes, he's wrong about that. A medic who knows how to aim with the syringe guns, especially the blutsauger, is powerful against pyros. Demoman does have trouble though. If anything, you can plant sticky bombs and use them to get away. He can also place them in places where the pyro won't notice them, on good maps. The flare gun is actually fairly easy to dodge anyway from the range where he thinks it's so useful. There's also the problem that the flaregun becomes useless if your target is another pyro.

[WealthyRadish]

If I were to generalize, I'd say that there are two kinds of pyros: M1 and M2. The distinction comes down to whether the pyro's secondary weapons are just there for limited situations, or if they're the main damage dealers. An M1 pyro holds M1 and runs into people, while an M2 pyro is basically a fat scout with airblast and instakill melee. Most M1 pyros use phlog/backburner and a flare gun, while M2 pyros typically use the degreaser (or sometimes stock) and either shotgun or flare gun.

If I were to graph the learning curve of both, with a stock scout for comparison, it'd look a bit like this.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Pyro is one of the easiest classes to play, but the predominant style amongst pubs has too low of a skill ceiling to stay viable.

[Sonlirain]

Well... Pyro is pretty strong as long as he can get the jump on someone and even heavies can get disoriented and killed at close range if you airblast them while before they can get a proper aim on you.

Otherwise pyro WILL get killed.

His mid/long ranage weapons are good for setting on fire (it's pretty strong but there is ample time for them to find a medkit or get healed by other means) but not much else.
Oh and he can airblast crap back at people INCLUDING arrows (I pinned to a wall at least one sniper with his own huntsman arrow thanks to pyros deflection shields).

Basically pyro will do great against everything as long as you can get the jump on it (maybe except a entrenched engy but he will do short work of it once a ubered medic appears nearby.

[Ricky]

As someone who plays A lot of TF2, the pyro is pretty powerful, but not unstoppable. Their airblast takes care of soldiers and demos, but thats only for skilled players. and with enough luck and skill you can destroy sentrys singlehandedly. The flaregun is hard to use without experience, but it does crit on fire damage making it powerful in close and long range. Its definitely hard to take down a heavy while playing pyro. Even if youre trying to kill him from long range. they have massive amounts of health, and at close range youre basically dead. Scouts can take out pyros relatively easy, but if you start airblasting them they get really disoriented.

and like UrbanGiraffe said, there are two types of pyros. some people dont know how to use the airblast properly so they simply dont use it.

[Cthulhu]

But at the risk of using fallacious arguments
      -Is it used overwhelmingly by Pubs?
      -Is it banned by pros?
      -Is it overpowered?
Same answer each time.

...Hm?

The best way to gauge how OP a character is in a game is to look at how he's played.  If he's seen in every game by lower level players, he might be OP but it's not a guarantee, remember lots of noobs thought Mordekaiser and Tryndamere were OP even during periods where they sucked major scroat.  If he's being regularly banned in high level play, he's probably OP or otherwise detrimental to the meta.

[BunnyBob77]

Let's see, reasons why the pyro isn't overpowered,
-Mostly useless at long range, flare gun is slow, hard to use, and does pretty low damage
-Easily countered by scout, or anyone running backwards
-Airblast requires skill to use correctly and is only effective in certain circumstances
-Only able to good damage at close range
-Can be killed before he even gets into attack range

[PanH]

It's just that in pub, people don't know how to act fastly enough against a rusher pyro. Pyro is easy to use for a pub, cause you can effectively just M1 rush and grab some kills, but if you play on some better servers, you'll get killed if you try M1.
Pyro is one of the easiest class at low skill level, but that's pretty much all.