Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Scelly9]

Vegetarians usually do eat dairy and eggs, Vegans do not.

[Vattic]

All modern tasty fruits derived from largerly lowsugar wild ancestor. You simply can't gorge on that in past.
About chimps - while being relativly closest to us, they still was developing as a branch for millions years. You can't really compare humans with monkeys anymore with all those findings of ancient human ancestors.
And about chicken egg problem? Real problem is that people delved into diet which was never common for their bodies - grain was never major source of food, it's basically wild planetwise experiment. Not suprisingly, gluten intolerance and other crap.

With that agenda in mind we can now reside to eat japaneese shitburgers because it's so enviromentalistic. I say no way.

The modern tasty fruit thing is not completely true. Wild strawberries are lovely, blackberries too, and that's just in the UK there are more abroad (not a fantastic source but I think it can be trusted on this front). It's also worth considering there are a wide range of nuts which are fine wild (acorns have never been domesticated) and various fungus.

I used chimps for comparison because it is interesting and they are used as one in the literature. They are in no way perfect and we show obvious adaptation to cooking. Funnily enough it can be argued that using modern hunter gatherers as a basis for past eating habits is also not that reliable. The main reason being that some commonly used technologies are relatively recent (fishing nets for example).

I do wonder why you take issue with a change in diet as you can be healthy and a species diet can shift drastically over time. Humans have adapted to having more starch in our diets (AMY1 gene duplicates) and milk. Your argument reminds me of similar I have heard about whether or not cooking food is good for us. I don't suppose you object to cooking? How about dairy products?

[Sigulbard]

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

You can no longer eat bacon.

Hah, nope:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Sorry for using 9gag as my source...

[kahn1234]

anyone care to remind me how many animals are killed each year due to the harvesting of plants?

how many animals (and humans) are killed/made ill etc by things such as fertilizers, pesticides, weed killers and other things like them?

The number is far higher (i think its roughly double?) than the number of animals killed in slaughterhouses. and they dont die quick deaths (unlike the vast majority of slaughterhouse kills).

Also, i abhor the use of the word 'murder' when talking about animal slaughter. They aren't sapient. they dont know whats coming and in many countries they are stunned before slaughter so they aren't even conscious when the death happens (its another case entirely in barbaric countries that have halal and other religious practices like it).

Well there is the main reason why I've been trying to edge towards vegetarianism, it's a big source of cholesterol, and raises your risk of stomach/colon cancer.

Gotta call bullsh** on this: http://www.gnolls.org/1444/does-meat-rot-in-your-colon-no-what-does-beans-grains-and-vegetables/

Normal Meat consumption has no effect on the stomach, colon or cholesterol. only in huge, inhuman amounts.

Not to mention some other possible health concerns with regards to the antibiotics, growth hormones, and just the general chemicals that the animal you're eating has picked up through it's food/water/environment.

Antibiotics and growth hormones may be damaging, but have you taken a look recently at the chemicals contained in the huge cocktail of fertilizers, pesticides, weed killers, insecticides etc that farmers pile on their crops? Far worse.

[Vattic]

Not to mention some other possible health concerns with regards to the antibiotics, growth hormones, and just the general chemicals that the animal you're eating has picked up through it's food/water/environment.

Antibiotics and growth hormones may be damaging, but have you taken a look recently at the chemicals contained in the huge cocktail of fertilizers, pesticides, weed killers, insecticides etc that farmers pile on their crops? Far worse.

Including the crops they feed the livestock with.

Ultimately you can get organic meat and plant foods if you like (although that term is almost meaningless due to lobbying in some countries from what I've heard).

[DJ]

I raise my own pigs on turnips I grow in my own garden ^_^

[PanH]

anyone care to remind me how many animals are killed each year due to the harvesting of plants?

how many animals (and humans) are killed/made ill etc by things such as fertilizers, pesticides, weed killers and other things like them?

The number is far higher (i think its roughly double?) than the number of animals killed in slaughterhouses. and they dont die quick deaths (unlike the vast majority of slaughterhouse kills).

Source ?
I found 72 millions animals killed by year by pesticides (in USA). An average american eats 31 animals a year (found also 50, or higher), multiplied by 300 millions americans. Do the maths.

Also, i abhor the use of the word 'murder' when talking about animal slaughter. They aren't sapient. they dont know whats coming and in many countries they are stunned before slaughter so they aren't even conscious when the death happens (its another case entirely in barbaric countries that have halal and other religious practices like it).

First, sapience != consciousness
Secondly, there's the way slaughter should work, and the way they work. Currently, slaughterhouse are far from painless. Stuns are not efficient 100%, especially with how they're applied.
Third, "barbaric" things like halal are in every countries, including USA, Europe, etc. You often eat koscher or halal meat.

Well there is the main reason why I've been trying to edge towards vegetarianism, it's a big source of cholesterol, and raises your risk of stomach/colon cancer.

Gotta call bullsh** on this: http://www.gnolls.org/1444/does-meat-rot-in-your-colon-no-what-does-beans-grains-and-vegetables/

Normal Meat consumption has no effect on the stomach, colon or cholesterol. only in huge, inhuman amounts.

"I'm gonna call bullshit by linking to an article that talks about something else." Yes it doesn't 'rot'. Meat is not "bad", but vegetarian diets are often better for stomach, colon, cholesterol, etc, especially looking how much meat we eat nowadays. Just look at the effects of mediterranean diet, compare, etc.

Antibiotics and growth hormones may be damaging, but have you taken a look recently at the chemicals contained in the huge cocktail of fertilizers, pesticides, weed killers, insecticides etc that farmers pile on their crops? Far worse.

I'm gonna call source again. Proof of chemicals on crops being worse than chemicals in meat ?
And, as said, Vattic, livestock eat said crops.

[10ebbor10]

Just as a note, for many species (pigs in particular) stress tends to be disastrous for the quality of the meat/ other products.

Hence why most corporations ensure that their slaugthering and storage methods aren't that bad. For example, pigs are first knocked out with gas before being electrocuted.

Oh, and another note of organic farming. Organic farming*, is despite all it's claims, much worse for nature than it's industrial counterpart. After all, if they are not exagerated, fertilizers and pesticides arent that harmfull, while the increased land use from organic farming useually is.


*Note that this doesn't include the scientifically sound agroforestry and other experiments, but only the "industrial farming without fertilizers" organic farming.

[DJ]

Yeah, you definitely don't want the animal getting a heart attack before bleeding, or the tiny arteries in the meat will be full of clotted blood.

[Lagslayer]

Posting to watch.

[kahn1234]

Not to mention some other possible health concerns with regards to the antibiotics, growth hormones, and just the general chemicals that the animal you're eating has picked up through it's food/water/environment.

Antibiotics and growth hormones may be damaging, but have you taken a look recently at the chemicals contained in the huge cocktail of fertilizers, pesticides, weed killers, insecticides etc that farmers pile on their crops? Far worse.

Including the crops they feed the livestock with.

wrong. the animals dont usually get the same things we do. not in Europe at least.

[kahn1234]

anyone care to remind me how many animals are killed each year due to the harvesting of plants?

how many animals (and humans) are killed/made ill etc by things such as fertilizers, pesticides, weed killers and other things like them?

The number is far higher (i think its roughly double?) than the number of animals killed in slaughterhouses. and they dont die quick deaths (unlike the vast majority of slaughterhouse kills).

Source ?
I found 72 millions animals killed by year by pesticides (in USA). An average american eats 31 animals a year (found also 50, or higher), multiplied by 300 millions americans. Do the maths.

Now look at the numbers for global animal death toll due to farming.

Also, i abhor the use of the word 'murder' when talking about animal slaughter. They aren't sapient. they dont know whats coming and in many countries they are stunned before slaughter so they aren't even conscious when the death happens (its another case entirely in barbaric countries that have halal and other religious practices like it).

First, sapience != consciousness
Secondly, there's the way slaughter should work, and the way they work. Currently, slaughterhouse are far from painless. Stuns are not efficient 100%, especially with how they're applied.
Third, "barbaric" things like halal are in every countries, including USA, Europe, etc. You often eat koscher or halal meat.

Sentient= conciousness
Sapience= awareness, as in, they think about death and what comes after, they philosophise etc. The only animal we know for sure is sapient is humanity, maybe whales, dolphins, elephants etc.

and i would like to see a source for the 'slaughterhouses arent 100%' thing.

Well there is the main reason why I've been trying to edge towards vegetarianism, it's a big source of cholesterol, and raises your risk of stomach/colon cancer.

Gotta call bullsh** on this: http://www.gnolls.org/1444/does-meat-rot-in-your-colon-no-what-does-beans-grains-and-vegetables/

Normal Meat consumption has no effect on the stomach, colon or cholesterol. only in huge, inhuman amounts.

"I'm gonna call bullshit by linking to an article that talks about something else." Yes it doesn't 'rot'. Meat is not "bad", but vegetarian diets are often better for stomach, colon, cholesterol, etc, especially looking how much meat we eat nowadays. Just look at the effects of mediterranean diet, compare, etc.

No they arent. You really believe mediterranean diets are 'vegetarian'? they are about as far from vegetarian as is possible. they are jam packed full of fish, molluscs, crustceans ad meats of various kinds. Also, on that website i linked there are multiple articles about how people who have cut down to a bare minimum of non meat/non dairy products are actually far healthier than those who eat 'normal' or higher amounts of carbs, veggies, fruits etc.

Antibiotics and growth hormones may be damaging, but have you taken a look recently at the chemicals contained in the huge cocktail of fertilizers, pesticides, weed killers, insecticides etc that farmers pile on their crops? Far worse.

I'm gonna call source again. Proof of chemicals on crops being worse than chemicals in meat ?
And, as said, Vattic, livestock eat said crops.

Its only a google away. Take your pick of any farming synthetic fertilizer, pesticide, weed killer, insecticide etc.
Meat has things like anti-biotics and various hormones. not gonna kill you quickly, if at all.
Now compare them to the chemicals used in farming. Much of the stuff isnt even safe for human consumption, and most of the crops arent washed after harvest......

[PanH]

wrong. the animals dont usually get the same things we do. not in Europe at least.

Yes they do. They eat crops that are grown with fertilizers, pesticides, weed killers and such. What the hell do you think they eat ?
Most of them eat corn or soja, which are both edible by humans, in Europe as in USA.

Now look at the numbers for global animal death toll due to farming.

Source again. You're not even providing a number.

Sentient= conciousness
Sapience= awareness, as in, they think about death and what comes after, they philosophise etc. The only animal we know for sure is sapient is humanity, maybe whales, dolphins, elephants etc.

and i would like to see a source for the 'slaughterhouses arent 100%' thing.

It doesn't mean animals don't fear death, or don't care.
For slaughterhouses, you can look at wikipedia, you can look at different stories about workers in slaughterhouse. There's even been reports of animals not being killed properly and skinned alive.

No they arent. You really believe mediterranean diets are 'vegetarian'? they are about as far from vegetarian as is possible. they are jam packed full of fish, molluscs, crustceans ad meats of various kinds. Also, on that website i linked there are multiple articles about how people who have cut down to a bare minimum of non meat/non dairy products are actually far healthier than those who eat 'normal' or higher amounts of carbs, veggies, fruits etc.

I never said that Mediterranean diet is vegetarian, but with only limited amount of poultry and fish. And is considered one of the healthiest, by several studies, like the Seven countries study. Vegetarian diets are perfectly possible, and benefits of largely plant based diets have been proved. I personally believe studies on several countries more than the proclamation of a website without any foundation.

About antibiotics, you obviously don't seem to know how it works. Antibiotics in large quantity and continuously are dangerous and can develop new diseases. Never heard of MRSA ?

[Max White]

Has anybody done the 'Animals eat animals, so why can't we?' line yet?

[kingfisher1112]

Has anybody done the 'Animals eat animals, so why can't we?' line yet?

Yep, that was me.