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[TheWetSheep]

Oh, I remember now.

Onyx: You said a while ago(post # 364) that you were going to give us your reads. Could you give them now?

[IronyOwl]

Quadressence, Act 1:

No contradiction. You're simply misconstruing things. I never did propose a method. I said that I would use one that didn't involve posting my reads on everyone. I deemed it... Not posting your reads. Why? Mostly because I didn't want to. It was mindlessly following. Like, I know I'm new to this whole thing, but I thought we were here to learn. Not just follow the leader.

We've been trying to teach you. You haven't been interested in learning. If all I needed was for you to do as I did, I'd have told you what to do and not particularly bothered explaining why. Instead I've been explaining why over and over again despite your obvious disinterest in my savage attempts to curb your creativity, ie doing whatever you feel like whyever you feel like it.

So, I said to myself, what would the Org do?

Get a policy lynch going on yourself for a time?

You see, that's the thing. These ICs are supposed to teach you how to play, but, honestly, they're just teaching you how they play. Poorly, at that. You'll leave this game thinking you've learned a bit, but really, no one has taught you anything. Very few of you will last to play continuously. And that's fine. It's a necessary evil.

Look at it. The ICs are simply saying I'm lazy scum. Nothing to try to improve my game. What do my actions signify, ICs? Don't you understand?

I can call you out on being a liar using the post immediately before you made this statement. What do we see here?

Spoiler: This, amongst other things: (click to show/hide)

I am after IronyOwl here. There is no reason for me to bother with the likes of you two. I am merely answering your questions until you provide me with a reason to suspect you.

Also NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.

First of all, this is more of that tunnel vision. You always want to be poking more than one suspect. Not necessarily strongly; some people find they focus (either reading scumtells, applying pressure, or both) better on a lone target. But ignoring everything else and deciding that X is your target and thus you don't care about anything else is essentially wagering the entire game on X being scum, seeing as you're not going to have the slightest clue on anyone else if they're not.

Secondly, waiting for others to provide an excuse to suspect them is lazy, opportunistic, and scummy. It's essentially saying "Well, I don't suspect you guys at the moment, but neither do I have any interest in hunting you to find out. So, I'm just gonna sit here and ignore you UNLESS you give me an excuse, in which case I'll jump onto an easy bandwagon."

Third, you seem to be completely ignoring that sometimes other people interact with you because THEY want to know if YOU'RE scum, and thus whether or not YOU are looking for more suspicions right now is totally irrelevant.

Why look! It's an entire blurb detailing how you could be playing better and why.

As for the rest, I assume your actions signify that you have no fucking clue what you're doing, but refuse to acknowledge as much. If you've got another theory to propose (or would like to back up "I'm creative wheeeeeee!" with explanations for why you're being usefully creative), I'm all ears.

And yet, I'm certain there's a vast number of players with a similar style to my own. Webadict, ToonyMan, Org, Pandarsenic. Are these newbies supposed to unaware of these styles? To simply ignore them? Because you two do.

Ahahahaha no. None of them act like you do, and more importantly all (well, except maybe Org) of them get better results than you do from how they do act. Saying "well they don't act like you do, so I'm acting like them in not acting like you do!" is akin to claiming that some guy uses a crossbow instead of a rifle, therefore your plan to use rabbit slippers in a firefight is entirely justified.

My "method" involves looking at what people say. The content. The meaning. The context. The subtext. The wordplay. The grammar. The structure... And I say to myself, "Would I write that as scum?" And sometimes I say "yes" and sometimes "no" but overall, it helps me feel who's scummier than others. Will I post a list of reads. Mmmm, let me thi--No. Why? Because that's a lot of useless nonsense that can change at the press of an Enter. I give you what's important. What's meaningful. What's happening right now. And here, I'm already called wordy. 

WHOAAAAAAAAAAAAA. That's like, sooooooooooooo raaaaaadicallllll, maaaaaaaan. I never would have thought of, like... interpreting what someone says to figure out if they're scum or not!

So... what does this have to do with not following the leader or emulating Org again? Don't get me wrong; I'm pleased that you've admitted that scumhunting requires analyzing posts (although your continued insistence on refusing to understand that other people might like to do that to you sometime so maybe it'd be nice if you could talk is unfortunate). I just don't understand how page after page of talking about how individualistic and clever and intelligent and not-sheeplike you are culminated in a confession that you do, in fact, use basic scumhunting from time to time.

Let's not even forget that I also didn't refuse to give any reads, either.

Straight-up lying is probably one of the worst scumtells there is.

But please, Ms. Creative Notsheep, tell us how your persistent refusal to give reads on the basis that it's stupid and there's no reason to doesn't count as refusing to give any reads.






Act 2:

I don't have much time tonight, but I can say this much:
I find IronyOwl and NQT the most suspicious. NQT tries too hard, and from what little there is to analyse about Irony it seems they tried to distance themselves from FD till it became disadvantageous. So, I'm all up for voting Irony if push comes to shove.

This is almost exactly what I've posted about IronyOwl and notquitethere. Explain to me how it's taken you this long to only have these suspicions.

Really? I think I missed that from you, or else it got drowned out in all the other stuff you've been doing. Could you link to where you mentioned this, and please explain what I asked Spaghetti to explain: namely, when I tried to distance myself from FD.

Good post, however.

Also this one thing:

Okay, then, what's your social security and credit card number?

That's not relevant to the game. Your reads are. Feel free to laugh at (and question the motives of) anyone demanding to know what you had for breakfast this morning. For game-related stuff, "Too bad, take what I choose to give you" will impair town's hunting ability and result in you being lynched.

So, what you're saying is that if I don't do what you say for your implied reason of "or else I'll lynch you," you'll lynch me? Then explain to me how not only is that scummy but also how that makes me scummier than everyone else. If your reason was simply to teach me a lesson, then you've certainly shown us what ICs are truly capable of, because that's literally the only reason I've gotten to answer the question. And I told you, I won't answer the question. So, what are you going to do? Let's see you start actually teaching players how to play.

Pretty much, yeah. I've explained why, several times, as has Shakerag, WetSheep, Spaghetti, and Onyx, AKA every other player in the game. A quick grab nets me:

1. We can critique each other for better overall reads. If I think somebody is scum for an invalid reason, but don't share my reasons, nobody can correct me, and I'll go on suspecting that person.
2. It's helpful to you so that, when you eventually vote someone, we don't accuse you of voting without reason.
3. It's helpful to us because you can point out scummy/towny things we miss.
4. If you are scum, there's more chance to find a scumslip, since scum know the alignment of everyone and may therefore give something away in their reads.
5. Town benefit from having as much information and opinion as possible out there. As said above, only scum would want to withhold this kind of information.

No, I'm not going to give you my reads because they could be used against me... This is why everybody gives them, so we can decide who is the most scummy.

Do you not understand? Town are on a team. Please try to help your team(if you are town) by giving us your opinions. The only valid reason I see for withholding reads is so that you don't get Mafiakilled if you are suspicious of scum.

Quadressence, the town works as a team. We are all trying to find scum together, therefore do you not agree it follows that they who withdraws their list of reads is scum?

The reason was, you were asked. Generally when one is asked a question in Mafia, you answer. No being clever or dodging it, because it will look scummy.
That has got me interested though, why are the only ones that matter the ones everyone else is going for? Don't you think you might be getting a bit of tunnel vision?

This is a lot of dodgy, irrelevant fluff that boils down to refusing to answer a question because you don't feel like it. Who doesn't want people peering into their brainmeats? Scum. Town doesn't mind, because they know they're innocent in there, even if they're not particularly useful.

That's not relevant to the game. Your reads are. Feel free to laugh at (and question the motives of) anyone demanding to know what you had for breakfast this morning. For game-related stuff, "Too bad, take what I choose to give you" will impair town's hunting ability and result in you being lynched.

And yes, that last one is the very post you're quoting, attempting to explain why you should post your reads and it's scummy and counterproductive not to.

So, I'd love to explain why, but we've tried that. It hasn't worked. Why don't you tell me what you're looking for, then? Clearly it seems like something on your end, because every other player in the game seems to grasp it and is willing to share with you, often multiple times.

But they wouldn't precisely because you already suspect the possibility of a bus. Let's break it down: bussing would have been a terrible idea because not only would it have made it harder to win, but people would still suspect a bus so you wouldn't be off the hook (as proven by the fact that you suspect a bus).

This is really not sinking in for you, is it?

I AM 100% CONFIRMED TOWN. YOU CAN TELL I AM 100% CONFIRMED TOWN BECAUSE YOU CURRENTLY SUSPECT ME FOR NOT SUSPECTING REMUTHRA. SCUM WOULD KNOW NOT TO NOT SUSPECT REMUTHRA BECAUSE THEN TOWN MIGHT SUSPECT THEM FOR IT, THUS IT'S SOMETHING ONLY TOWN WOULD DO.

Now your response to this is...?

This is our IC, folks. That's right. The condescending douchebag that's here to teach you all how to play. Don't worry, though, he clearly knows better than you at everything. Perhaps I should just save this for Act 3, my cereal's already gone, and I've made no progress.

Admittedly, I was a bit miffed at this point. I realize WIFOM can be a difficult concept to grasp- that's why we have a name for it, after all- but he was literally using WIFOM to justify his use of WIFOM, and I felt an example was in order.

I haven't seen worse teaching since Webadict. And that's saying something. Seriously, if you can't keep your cool around newbies, how do you expect to teach them? Did you forget your job? IC first, Mafia second. I'll show you how you could respond without being a jackass:

I'm not a shitty IC, I just refuse to be a sheep. Check me out being all rebel-like, not listening to THE MAN WOMAN trying to explain why I shouldn't do that.

More seriously, that was cool enough. I felt it needed some drama to help sink in, as the standard explanations weren't, and if this fails also it won't be because I was too enraged to articulate it properly or not alienate NQT in telling it to him.

It's WIFOM, and sure, it has some problems, but to not use WIFOM in your calculations can be a folly. Using it in a way that's constructive can help you figure out the mindset of the scum, which is important in figuring out who the scum are, and sometimes what their goal is, and I believe his use of WIFOM is constructive. I think scum would likely not lynch Flying Dice because he wasn't a liability. Sure, I could be wrong. But, I'm probably right, and I'll take probably as an excuse to build off the argument.

This is surprisingly advanced compared to what I've seen from you so far. Finally taking Imiknorris' advice on these things?

Also, how certain are you scum wouldn't have bussed FD, even at the end to get themselves a free pass? Wasn't NQT your second suspect after me?


Guess I'll cut this "short" as well and deal with the rest later.

[TheWetSheep]

Oh, and another thing I wanted to address but forgot:

I owe you nothing.

You certainly owe him a whole lot more respect than you're giving him.

[Quadressence]

Oh, and another thing I wanted to address but forgot:

I owe you nothing.

You certainly owe him a whole lot more respect than you're giving him.

she is genuinely being an annoying twat and oozing noob.

I owe you nothing.

If only you all were slightly less noisy.

If you meant posting long or frequent posts, then that's kind of the goal of the game, is it not? And again, you did this as well. Three times, by last count.

Great! Although I'm a little confused as to why you explained why you couldn't give your reads just before you gave them.

Ironically, I want to answer the question of my own free will because I actually have better reads on people, but I can't due to being an ass.

You state being bouncy and lacking focus to be a town-tell. I know you're a fan of chaos, but I would think it's a scumtell, because it means they lack devotion and don't care about who they lynch. Unless we have different meanings for bouncy.

we have different meanings for bouncy

Either way, not fit to be scum.

Let's not even forget that I also didn't refuse to give any reads, either.

Straight-up lying is probably one of the worst scumtells there is.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Notquitethere! Explain your vote on Flying Dice! Of course, you think, 'But that is the enemy, surely, you jest!' On the con(trary), I suggest that it be an elaborate ruse, a masquerade! You intend to lynch your partner and enjoy town status. Adequate, but you explained your vote too well, too much, to have it go unnoticed.

There's more! This morning, you exempt yourself from suspicion not on the grounds that you believe yourself to be innocent, but that there would be no way for scum to bus themselves. Another nail in the coffin for you, as there can be no way for you to prove this except by being scum, which would then make it grounds for a lie.

*The sleuthette smiles, her eyes sparkling, and puts the magnifying glass to her eye, investigating notquitethere.*

You indirectly compliment the scum team when you comment on the dead cop, and also cheer the town on, both I find rather unappealing and incredibly suspicious.

And then, I quote

I- I think we've got it!

this squib. So nervous, but for what?

*The sleuthette turns and begins pacing.*

For now, though, even if I find you suspicious, I must say your case is of quality, and therefore it must be examined.

Worth noting is that IronyOwl indirectly disputes the bussing debacle, instead of dissecting it directly. Defensive, really, inducing no decent discussion. I deduce that he intends to redirect without provoking notquitethere, and the best way to do that would be to simply not vote him.

Quadressentially, he'll have to vote notquitethere eventually. It's merely a matter of time, unless he can distract himself elsewhere (I, of course, expect myself!)

*The sleuthette spins on her feet.*

IronyOwl.

I was offering supporting reasons, as I know what counts as a burden of proof for myself may not count as such for other. As it happens, I was absolutely correct.

Ah, but we don't know that, do we? If I'd said that Remuthra's name started with an R, and R was pretty close to S, and S stood for scum, I would have been "absolutely correct" also.

For that matter, we still don't know how well your theory's going to hold up for the other scum, to say nothing of how correct those supporting reasons are/will be. If your theory was completely correct we'd just be lynching whoever's had the second most votes and be done with it, wouldn't we?

You seem skeptical of his supporting case, so somehow you seem to suggest that any case involving nonsense would be equivalent. But, I disagree. Sure, the case was overloaded, but that did not make the case wrong. Instead, you'd want to argue bussing, but you're not. You're saying the case could not have been correct, but a scum would indeed have a correct case! (AHA!)

Perhaps, you can try again, and we'll see how it goes.

*The lights dim, and the actress falls into bed.*

This was far more entertaining than it looks.

[Quadressence]

*The sun rises slowly over the horizon. A new day has begun. The shower water is cold. She drags her way to the kitchen, hair dripping on her shoulders, and pours herself a bowl of cereal. She squints into the refrigerator light, making out the jug of milk. Spoon. She is equipped to fight.*

But as I stare at the screen, I realize that right now is not a fighting time. There's not enough time to say what I want to. Later.

Wait for Onyxjew to type some more responses. Why has he failed to deliver what he promised? Why is his case a reprint of someone else's?

And extension.

Spaghetti7 is far too quiet. He does similar things to Onyxjew.

Yeah, I'll be back later. My mind has fizzled.

[Shakerag]

Unvote.

Request replacement.

[I'm very sorry all, and this is highly unusual for me to do, but there are some things going on in my personal life that are demanding enough mental and emotional attention that it's difficult for me to focus on work, let alone this game.]

[Tiruin]

Unvote.

Request replacement.

[I'm very sorry all, and this is highly unusual for me to do, but there are some things going on in my personal life that are demanding enough mental and emotional attention that it's difficult for me to focus on work, let alone this game.]

{God Speed Shakerag, and may you fare well in your endeavors. You're always an inspiration ^^

Also, i'll be probably replacing this good man in. Just to note ahead of time!}

[Remuthra]

((Now all we need is for IO and Deathsword to replace out.))

[Tiruin]

((Now all we need is for IO and Deathsword to replace out.))

[What? XD You can't replace the moderator...

Or are you saying that the whole cast of this BM has undergone a replacement?]

[Urist Imiknorris]

I haven't!

Also, Jim Groovester replaced Darvi as moderator in BMXXXIII.

[Teneb]

Tiruin has replaced Shakerag as IC and player

[TheWetSheep]

OK. I was looking at NQT late Day 1, hoping to build a case on him, and I may have found one.

Right before the deadline, the votes looked like this:

Captain Ford: 2(FD and SilverDragon) <-- Or 1, because Deathsword said he'd remove SilverDragon's.
NQT: 2(Captain Ford, IronyOwl)
Flying Dice: 2(OnyxJew, Spaghetti)

Not voting: Shakerag, NQT, Borno(up for replacement)

Now, let's assume for a moment NQT is scum. He realizes Captain Ford only has 1 vote. Since FD and himself are both scum, there's almost no way in which scum will not be lynched. Shakerag's probably not going to vote for CF, since a) it would make a 3-way tie, and b) he wasn't suspicious of him. In fact, he stated that he was most suspicious of NQT and FD. Borno won't vote because he's up for replacement. The people already voting aren't likely to change their votes, so the only vote that matters is NQT's. Since he can't get a town lynch, he's obviously going to vote for FD, since this has the upside of the bus.

Does this make sense? Please let me know if you find a flaw.

Quad:

You state being bouncy and lacking focus to be a town-tell. I know you're a fan of chaos, but I would think it's a scumtell, because it means they lack devotion and don't care about who they lynch. Unless we have different meanings for bouncy.

we have different meanings for bouncy

Either way, not fit to be scum.

Care to elaborate?

Tiruin: Do you want an extend?

[notquitethere]

At work so only have time to respond to this one thing: Quad, all you've shown is that it was not impossible for me to be scum, not that I actually am I scum. Also, does my voting on the other days (including the times when the day almost ended but didn't due to extensions) add to or hinder your theory? I like vote analysis, so this is good stuff, but you've got to be more thorough.

[Spaghetti7]

Sorry for not posting much, but school takes up quite a bit of time with exams and stuff. I'm trying to have to replace out, but if it would be better just tell me.
For now, all I need to say is we need to make a decision; Who do we lynch? My two favorites are Irony and NQT, but I'm open to other explanations.

[Tiruin]

Tiruin: Do you want an extend?

{Words in the braces are my IC voice ^_^}

Also, I'm going to sleep for now because I've drawn (pun not intended) myself tired until 4am...darn GIMP. Make it 5am :O

Anyway, I'd rather be against the extend unless you all have made up your minds, or are very muchly sure about your target.

As for my reads of briefly skimming the thread:
Quadressence: You're quite astute, I like that. However I think you should start cutting down on the RP' too much , I mean, I like RolePlaying as much as the next person, but you can state yourself better by getting to the point.

Though it does give some sort of feel on what you're trying to convey, even statements can easily supplement that.

Also, reads are for generally everyone - no matter who you intend them as an answer for - a forum post is public > visible to everyone. I'd really doubt you can stop someone from reading a post that is needed for an explanation

For one, I don't suspect you much - this is partly because of "I really doubt UI could teach that way", and mainly because I just skimmed and that was my first impression; but the real factor is what you post. You're targeting someone, and this is not in an obfuscating way, but what I think is that you're trying to pressure that certain someone regardless of what everyone else thinks. Just like IronyOwl, you're being hostile in a way that shows curtness, but not total disrespect given that you're also learning from him as this also tests emotions. Shortening: You're scumhunting via aggression and specification.

Am I right, ma'am?

Lastly, how do you feel about your target? Are you sure enough that he is the last scum in-game?

{It is always best to summarize a list on why you think that person is scum after a long-drawn battle of wits and words. Trust me, this is what most people will be aiming for if opinions are divided amongst the masses.}

NQT/Onyxjew: Hai. Nice to see you fair fellows again. Question for both of you:

> In scumhunting in this particular thread, do you believe that you should point out every detail of your target's post in trying to catch them, or work on their more prominent points and discard the small quirks? And why?

Spaghetti (Mind if I omit the 7?)

Sorry for not posting much, but school takes up quite a bit of time with exams and stuff. I'm trying to have to replace out, but if it would be better just tell me.
For now, all I need to say is we need to make a decision; Who do we lynch? My two favorites are Irony and NQT, but I'm open to other explanations.

{If you think you can manage a substantial and detailed post everyday and are quite sure of yourself, that's A'ok with everyone.

If you're busy (because exams...I can sympathize :/), then just be free to replace out. On your two favorites - who are you most likely inclined to vote, and why should you as we're dealing with one scumbag left? Now, this is mostly hypothetical given the timeframe, but I'd like to see your thinking here.}


TWS (TheWetSheep, I hope you're ok with my acronym?)
Judging from the votecount (Deathsword, please votecount after any post you make D:), you seem to be unvoting, yes?

> Do you think emotions derived from reading a person's post is more likely to point out their alignment to you than the actual wording of the post? Or, do you think that despite a person's quirks or mannerisms in words, a vote is one thing that must always be applied for scumhunting?

And this is goodnight for me. Praise be for typing skills >.>