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[borno]

Shakerag:

Captain Ford:
Anyway, it is D2, and the only person you thought was scummy just got murdered, flipping town. You have no suspicions other than that, how do you gain your targets?

[You appear to be asking an RVS question.  If you feel the need to be doing so at this point in the game then I'm going to propose you're doing something wrong.]

I was asking it because he had only just come into the game and I didn't really have any reads on him.

Spoiler: Analysis of Captain Ford's Analysis (click to show/hide)

Captain Ford:

borno:

Also the point about me forgetting the scum IC was... well I really did forget about him. My real point was what I said after that. If I was scum I'd be asking him for scum advice and not asking in the game. That's defiantly a stupid idea.

That's complete WIFOM. "I didn't ask the scum IC a scum related question so therefore I am town!" Logic doesn't really work in the mafia boards. That's two slip-ups, superBlast. But anyway, if you were scum and had one player aggressively attacking you and a lurker, who (if any) would you kill at night?

What did you mean when you said "Logic doesn't really work in the mafia boards"?

No, I meant the bolded part logic. As in, the WIFOMy part. I thought that was obvious, apparently it was not, so let me make this clear. If no-one were to use logic in mafia boards, mafia would not exist as we know it.

@borno It's a good question, as you yourself admitted. And it's only a role fish if you are dumb enough to give away anything.

And where are we. A BM. People aren't necessarily dumb, but they are definitely new and a bit confused as to what to do. But I'm going to Unvote you for now though, since it's not really fair to vote you for a question that I myself admitted was good.

Why did you unvote Remuthra? Do you understand why "not fair" isn't a good reason?

No, I had actually stated that the question was 'good', so I couldn't vote him over that. And not fair is a good reason to vote/unvote someone. For example, if you were to vote someone with no reason, that wouldn't be very fair, would it? No. And it'd get you lynched. So yes, unvoting someone for not being very fair is a good reason.

Reply #77 (By Borno): Odd wording in what he says to superBlast. "In mafia, acting nervous or unconfident is never a good idea, even if you're scum." feels like it should be "In mafia, acting nervous or unconfident is never a good idea, even if you're town."

I don't see why. I say scum because most newbscum are nervous and unconfident, and so will probably act as such. Of course, it does go both ways, but more so for scum than for town. But I another thing: Why does this matter in any way?

Reply #107 (by Borno): Borno's reasons for suspecting Nerjin were bad. Suspecting Nerjin for using an IC voice and not for what he said in it is a fallacy. He's also wrong when he calls out what superBlast said as WIFOM.

It is WIFOM. My post aptly explains why, had you actually read it. Here is the relevant statement summing up the WIFOM superBlast spewed.

I didn't ask the scum IC a scum related question so therefore I am town!

Also, it wasn't just the voice, it was what he said, which all was generally portraying him as a townie. I lifted the vote when he answered though, so that tell is completely null.

Reply #117: Unvotes borno and responds to his OMGUS. He gives a reasonable answer to borno's question, but the question was phrased poorly and he should have considered a NK on someone completely unrelated.
+    Accepts borno's accusation of WIFOM without debate. Again, he fails to realize that his points are valid and stand up for himself.
+    He then begins a descent into the newbie death spiral. The rest of this post is nearly incomprehensible to me, but I'll slog through it. Actually, no. It's a proper defense and a complete deconstruction of what's wrong with borno's attack. It only looks like a death spiral because it's pretty much one long run-on sentence. But break it up on your own, correct the spelling and grammar and you end up with this:

I guess it is WIFOM but I didn't think of it that way.

If I was seriously scum, but i didn't ask the scum IC for scum advice, or if I'm seriously scum and asking for scum advice in the game (even trying to camouflage it somehow to make look like I'm really not) is incredibly stupid.

The first one renders the scum IC useless and is stupid because I'm not using a resource that can help me win the game.
The second one gives me away to the town that I'm scum.

Your argument is WIFOM BULLSHIT because that makes me neither town nor scum so that makes it null and a completely useless defense and a completely useless fact to make a case on. And yet that's the only thing you have on me.

Yes it's suspicious but on it's own I think it's completely useless. And now you're probably gonna say that's really defensive of me, suspiciously defensive of me.

Fine, I don't care what you think. But what you just said makes me frustrated because it feels like you're missing something blatantly obvious to me. (Ford: Oh god I can identify with this)

If I actually did what you were insinuating then I'd be incredibly stupid and I would completely deserve to get lynched for it ... I mean it's so stupid I wouldn't think anyone would actually do it.

Did you know it was still RVS at that stage? No? Well, it was. I was voting him for pressure (And his WIFOM), and unvoted when he answered me.

(As with the last set of spoilers, this one will also have bias. I started out more suspicious of him and became more objective about halfway through I discovered that my original suspicions were unfounded)
Reply #77: Votes Nerjin for using an IC voice. What the fuck. Sure, this is probably a pressure vote, but he doesn't let it go later on.
+    Answer to Soldier's RVS question is okay.
+    FoS's Remuthra for ignoring an invalid question. Except borno said "What question is so wrong that you chose to ignore it outright?", which indicates he didn't actually read the conversation and just saw an opportunity to FoS somebody.
+    Asks spaghetti a question (and not a bad one).
+    Answers spaghetti's question (which was directed at Nerjin), but his answer is off. Equating scumhunting with asking questions sounds like someone who has only a superficial understanding of scumhunting.
+    Calls out superBlast for being nervous, which he's correct about. He offers friendly advice. Nothing scummy here. (not sarcasm)

Firstly, no shit. Secondly, I did let it go as soon as he answered me, in post #107. Thirdly, it was a rhetorical question. Fourthly… Uh? I never equated anything to anything in that post.

Reply #107: Drops his bad RVS case on Nerjin. Fair enough, I suppose.
+    Good answers to Spaghetti's questions, in stark contrast to Spaghetti himself.
+    Is busy because of school.
+    Explains his vote on Nerjin was a pressure vote.
+    Explains his FoSing. His explanation is valid, but...
+    He then goes out of his way to call out superBlast's defence as WIFOM, which it isn't. But the stand-out here is the part where he said: "Logic doesn't really work in the mafia boards."
+    He answers Shakerag's question. This is a good answer, especially given Shakerag's followup.

FTFY, see above for the rest.

Reply #134: He responds unnecessarily to IronyOwl's read on him. He also comes off as being more concerned about pandering to Irony than about finding scum.
+    Denies bandwagoning, while admitting to lining up a second target. He also completely misses the fact that he has supported the Remuthra bandwagon, even if he didn't vote him.
+    Calls out Remuthra for voting somebody based on an IC's read rather than his own (which was really dumb).
+    Calls superBlast an experienced player (LOL), and cops to the accusation in superBlast's defense. Borno's listed reasons for voting superBlast are good ones (to gather more information), so that's fine.
+    Asks Shakerag, Nerjin and Soldier for their reads.

It wasn't unnecessary, and it wasn't pandering. I was actually curious as to why he found me scummy. And I'm afraid you've mixed up what bandwagoning means. As explained in Shakerag's post, bandwagoning is when you vote someone while other people are too without any good reason.

Reply #138: Accuses Remuthra of rolefishing with an RVS question, and votes him on it. What. (And Remuthra agrees with him. 2x What Combo)
+    Gives the correct answer with regards to vote patterns: "Nothing except really bizarre stuff. And even then it's only just weird."
+    Dariush was in a BM? That's hilarious. I must see this with my own eyes.

RVS questions can be used as role fishing. In fact, they're pretty much the only questions that can be used for role fishing.

Reply #146: He's a bit too enthusiastic to bus another random player to save a townie. He's correct about speaking up in the player's defense, though. And if he's convinced someone is town, then anyone else is a better target, I guess.
+    Calls out Remuthra for failing to defend himself (which is accurate).
+    Calls out the lurker for lurking.

Not a 'random' player. I'd of searched through the thread, and if I couldn't find anyone to attack, I wouldn't attack anyone.

Reply #170: Calls out Spaghetti for forgetting about the godfather.
+    Unvotes Remuthra, stating "it's not fair for me to vote you for doing something I said was okay." I guess that makes sense? No wait. Why did he unvote? Why not keep the pressure on if he's still suspicious? "Not fair" isn't a good reason to unvote someone.
+    Asks superBlast if he's sure.
+    Calls for an extension. Is the first to do so.

As I said earlier, "Not Fair" is a perfectly good reason to unvote someone.

Reply #194: He's wrong about it not being a bandwagon (or rather, about his vote being the only one). At the time he voted, Remuthra had two other votes on him. He seems to be totally ignorant of it, though.
+    Asks me an RVS question.
+    His reply to Shakerag is a no-go. Shakerag deals with it gently, a rare mercy. I would've been more, "shovel, meet head."
+    Asks NQT a question, one that I think borno answered earlier. Maybe not. It's not worth checking.

Hmm, you're right, I missed that. But my vote still wasn't a bandwagon anyway. Also, I accidentally invoked a fallacy, which Shakerag righted. It's not really worth a beating.

tl;dr, Almost your entire argument against me is made up out of misinterpreting what I say and taking my posts out of context. I was suspicious of superBlast before, but now I know for sure that you two are scum. Vote Captain Ford.
NQT:

BornoNQT: Scum Bandwagon city, population Borno NQT.

Scum tells include: over-speculation bordering WIFOM, Bandwagoned Nerjin in the RVS, anti-logic, unvoted Nerjin after reasonable response only to jump back on the Blastwagon, very defensive when prodded mid-game, jumps on the Remuthra train with dubious reasons, unvotes when grilled, worried about being lynched in his sleep. Town tells: extends. Null tells: appears to have some experience, aggressive.

OK, what the fuck.  Over speculation bordering WIFOM? The only WIFOM is the WIFOM which I joke admitted to. Bandwagon in RVS? P. I had perfectly good reasons for voting Nerjin, mainly pressure. Anti-logic? Read above. Yes, I did unvote Nerjin, no, I didn't bandwagon. You say I'm defensive? In the very same post you say as a null tell that I'm aggressive. My reasons for voting Remuthra was pressure. Unvotes when satisfied with answers. Also, please don't tell me you're scolding me for asking not to be killed in my sleep, it was a joke and someone else had done it too, yet you didn't seem to notice. All these reasons are pulled out of your ass so that Captain Ford, your scum buddy, wouldn't get voted out D1.
Sorry if I've come off a bit harsh, I'm moving houses and it's pretty stressful. Also, I might need to replace if anyone thinks I'm not posting enough, due to house moving. It sucks that all this stuff happens in the first mafia game I'm actually enjoying (even though it might not sound like it).

[Teneb]

Beyond the door separating the room where nine mages decided which of them should die from the outside, stood a full squad of battlemagisters, their polished armours reflecting the torchlight. When the time came, it would be them who would carry out the execution of the chosen one.

Nerjin(1):The Soldier
The Soldier(0):
Captain Ford(3):Nerjin, Sphagetti7, borno
borno(2):Captain Ford, notquitethere
notquitethere(0):
Sphagetti7(1):Remuthra
Remuthra(1):Shakerag
Shakerag(0):
IronyOwl(0):

Not Voting: IronyOwl

4 votes for extension, 3 required. Extension granted.

Day now ends on 01/03/2013 at 22:00 BRT (GMT-3)

[Shakerag]

(by the way, superBlast contacted me by PM and thanked me for making that post, so it was totally worth it. For what it's worth, he agrees completely that he was lacking in confidence)

[And I'm sure most of us were in our first games.  superBlast is welcome to come back anytime for another go at it.  You won't get confidence if you don't try/play.]

Disclaimer: I have a headache and my post may be bit more "Dariush" because of it. I hope I haven't been too intimidating.

[AHAHAHAHAHA HAH HAH HAH no.  Not even close.]

Shakerag: Null. Town tells: follows up other players missed questions and lurking. Scum tells: appeared to bandwagon Remuthra in the RVS, (but for admittedly good looking reasons). Null tells: can be a good IC, rational, crypto-aggressive.

Emphasis added.  You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.


NQT:  [Less RVS, more analyzing what's already been said and/or grilling players.]

I was asking it because he had only just come into the game and I didn't really have any reads on him.

[Okay, but then why couldn't you have asked him a more current-game-relevant question rather than an RVS question?  Something like asking him to give an analysis of interactions between two players, or press him on one of his initial reads?]


IronyOwl:  You're having quite the heart-to-heart with Spaghetti7 over there.  Come to anything conclusive yet?

The Soldier:  What's your read on the dialogue between IronyOwl and Spaghetti7?

notquitethere:  I'm going to pull a Bookthras (he's known for doing this sort of thing) and ask you to ask IronyOwl a non-RVS question. 

Deathsword:  I don't think borno is voting for himself.

[Tiruin]

Disclaimer: I have a headache and my post may be bit more "Dariush" because of it. I hope I haven't been too intimidating.

[AHAHAHAHAHA HAH HAH HAH no.  Not even close.]

{Yep, not even close there. While I sometimes don't agree with Dar's meta, his essence is more pointy and assertive

Intimidating in the way that it makes you reply based on "I challenge your honor!" thing.

And now retreating to the peanut gallery...Or galley, what Jim said.}

[Spaghetti7]

Spaghetti7: What the crap. Did you just admit you'd bus another townie to save yourself?

No. This person who is giving off scum tells, I believe it is safe to assume, would be scum.

spaghetti7: What's up with all the bad answers?

I'm new to the game. I can't really say anything else. I've got no experience with answering RVS questions and haven't read the guide in a while. I've been trying to find my feet throughout, but I'm fairly sure I've only discovered a leg.

Spaghetti, is there ever a right time to tunnel another player? Is this an acceptable scumhunting technique?

No. Concentrating on a single person in never going to be a good thing. If you have your raisins then it's fine, and hopefully you could get them lynched for it. However, there's no sense in staying on one person and leaving everyone else to deal with the other, not least because it looks lazy and real scummy. You may have noticed I've generally avoided people being very scummy and probed others, because I want to get to know what EVERYONE is like.

Spaghetti:

Perhaps a "more" in there would help. Since I'm new I wouldn't attempt roleclaiming unless it would obviously yield something useful, so I have a less aggressive (not sure about this being the right word, but I hope you get the idea) playstyle than others might, for now. In essence, don't go claiming roles because scum will kill you for it.

This is fairly standard practice though, isn't it? I mean, the question was kind of odd to begin with- why would you want to avoid scum attentions, exactly?- but this still seems like your answer is "don't do anything stupid."

Take it as that, if that's easier.

I'd also label roleclaiming as... perhaps bold? Loud? It's not so much a matter of aggression as, well, being bold, playing your hand, or in extreme cases pulling a gambit.

Those are the words I was looking for! Thanks.

Alright, let me try to explain that again. In the early game and the scumhunting that ensures, I would find someone giving off tells. I would push them and milk every last bit of evidence I could, showing them as weak. If someone then votes on me and a couple of people suspiciously join in, being all aggressive but obviously having no real reasons to join, I would try to ward off the attack by revealing someone else who was incredibly scummy. I realise this doesn't answer the original question (which I misread at the time) but I attempted to answer the actual question above. When saying background, I mean background by Mafia standards, not lurking.

Mmm? This seems odd also. You're saying you'd:

-Find a scummy target
-Harvest as many tells as you can
-Make them look weak

Yes. Tells = scum. Scum = weak.

So, Step 1: Prey On The Infirm

Then, IF voted by multiple people, some of whom have weak reasons:

-Try to train them off onto someone else

Or, Step 2: Deflect Suspicion

What question were you trying to answer with this?

This was a large extension of the suspision question. I answered it wrong at first, as if it were what if I was about to be lynched. This is a mix of my made-up bit of the question and the actual question.

[notquitethere]

Soldier

NQT: Good reads, and I agree with them for the most part. Would personally rank Nerjin as scummier, however. That said, I assume that borno's "overdefensiveness" is seen here?

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Irony Owl:

Soldier:

IronyOwl: What makes borno more suspicious than Spaghetti?

Off the top of my head, lurkier and his posts have seemed more overtly calculating and malicious. Sphagetti's still had some flail to him, whereas borno's seemed fairly exclusively like a lurking schemer.

It's the timezones, I tell you! IT WAS THE TIMEZONES ALL ALONG! Really, there's a difference between lurking and not being able to go on the computer. And about the calculating and malicious part, sorry about that. I've screwed up in every single game I've been in before, and I really don't want to screw up this one. I'll try to be less serious from now on.

I don't know about you, but that looks more "jokey" than anything...
You, elsewhere in your list, call jokeyness and having a sense of humor nulltells. Why, then, is this not the case for borno?

The examples you cite are fine instances of Borno's humour and I don't have a problem with that. No, the defensiveness I had in mind was when Borno was first voted against, here:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

superBlast:

Now there's more people to ask, Borno, you're my next random voting target!

And for once I actually have a question in my head before writing this! I'm assuming your vote for Nerjin isn't random, and the blue on my and Remu's names means your suspicious of us. So why'd you vote Nerjin over me or Remu?

It was a pressure vote. I was suspicious with the way he acted like an IC, but I was also suspicious of you and Remuthra. Since I only had one vote, I decided to put it on him and point out both of your errors. Also I had posted a question to him, and generally voting with your questions makes them feel more compelled to answer.
Also,

Also the point about me forgetting the scum IC was... well I really did forget about him. My real point was what I said after that. If I was scum I'd be asking him for scum advice and not asking in the game. That's defiantly a stupid idea.

That's complete WIFOM. "I didn't ask the scum IC a scum related question so therefore I am town!" Logic doesn't really work in the mafia boards. That's two slip-ups, superBlast. But anyway, if you were scum and had one player aggressively attacking you and a lurker, who (if any) would you kill at night?

But to be honest, now that I've had another look at it, what seemed like a jumpy OMGUS last night, seems a little more reasonable now.

Borno

OK, what the fuck.  Over speculation bordering WIFOM? The only WIFOM is the WIFOM which I joke admitted to. Bandwagon in RVS? P. I had perfectly good reasons for voting Nerjin, mainly pressure. Anti-logic? Read above. Yes, I did unvote Nerjin, no, I didn't bandwagon. You say I'm defensive? In the very same post you say as a null tell that I'm aggressive. My reasons for voting Remuthra was pressure. Unvotes when satisfied with answers. Also, please don't tell me you're scolding me for asking not to be killed in my sleep, it was a joke and someone else had done it too, yet you didn't seem to notice. All these reasons are pulled out of your ass so that Captain Ford, your scum buddy, wouldn't get voted out D1.

The best I can say Borno is that once I started suspecting you when I was reading through the posts, a confirmation bias might have arose meaning that all further information was given undue extra weight in light of that suspicion.

Accusing me of protecting Ford as my scum buddy is amusing (as I got that same false accusation of being Ford's scum buddy in the last game I played) but I don't see how it's founded. He did his Borno-analysis after I gave my reads.

Still you didn't answer my question: "Could you tell me what you think should be the primary basis for making a proper lynch vote? (As opposed to merely a pressure vote or random-vote-stage vote)."

Shakerag

NQT:  [Less RVS, more analyzing what's already been said and/or grilling players.]

I can see how you might think my questions are random vote stage questions, but they're actually follow-ups on the reads I posted. I want to be able to put these player's earlier comments that I found suspicious into context. I can explain why I asked those three specific questions to those specific people if you like.

Regarding reference to wagoning in my initial reads: I noted down every time a player voted for another player that already had a vote on. This isn't by itself inherently suspicious, but if a player keeps doing this and especially if a player always does this, then there might be something concrete to call them out on.

notquitethere:  I'm going to pull a Bookthras (he's known for doing this sort of thing) and ask you to ask IronyOwl a non-RVS question.

That seems reasonable. You'll want to see whether I know how to ask non-RVS style questions.

Ironyowl

I've read everything superBlast said, and I'll stand by all of it.

Really? That's kind of odd, then, because superBlast was voting Remuthra with intent to kill him, whereas you're not. Why the discrepancy there?

If you were in Ford's shoes, would you stand by everything SB said? Would your decision be affected by whether or not you were scum?

Spaghetti

Spaghetti, is there ever a right time to tunnel another player? Is this an acceptable scumhunting technique?

No. Concentrating on a single person in never going to be a good thing. If you have your raisins then it's fine, and hopefully you could get them lynched for it. However, there's no sense in staying on one person and leaving everyone else to deal with the other, not least because it looks lazy and real scummy. You may have noticed I've generally avoided people being very scummy and probed others, because I want to get to know what EVERYONE is like.

I only ask because you seemed to think Nerjin's technique of asking everyone questions was a poor one. Do you still think that? Is your vote on Ford at the moment just a pressure vote on someone you don't think is actually very scummy?

[Teneb]

Votecount corrected. Thanks for pointing it out.

[Spaghetti7]

Spaghetti

Spaghetti, is there ever a right time to tunnel another player? Is this an acceptable scumhunting technique?

No. Concentrating on a single person in never going to be a good thing. If you have your raisins then it's fine, and hopefully you could get them lynched for it. However, there's no sense in staying on one person and leaving everyone else to deal with the other, not least because it looks lazy and real scummy. You may have noticed I've generally avoided people being very scummy and probed others, because I want to get to know what EVERYONE is like.

I only ask because you seemed to think Nerjin's technique of asking everyone questions was a poor one. Do you still think that? Is your vote on Ford at the moment just a pressure vote on someone you don't think is actually very scummy?

I guess I just wasn't accustomed to it. Now it does seem like a good idea, although I'm not sure I could think up that many questions and I find it far more simple to ask one at a time.
Also, yes, thanks for reminding me. Unvote Captain Ford and Vote Borno.
That was only a pressure vote, now I'll put my vote on the actual scummy looking one around here.

[borno]

NQT:

Accusing me of protecting Ford as my scum buddy is amusing (as I got that same false accusation of being Ford's scum buddy in the last game I played) but I don't see how it's founded. He did his Borno-analysis after I gave my reads.

* cough* LIES * cough*

Still you didn't answer my question: "Could you tell me what you think should be the primary basis for making a proper lynch vote? (As opposed to merely a pressure vote or random-vote-stage vote)."

Evidence, of course. Something you two are definitely lacking, yet nobody cares.
Spaghetti7:

Spaghetti7:

Spaghetti, is there ever a right time to tunnel another player? Is this an acceptable scumhunting technique?

No. Concentrating on a single person in never going to be a good thing. If you have your raisins then it's fine, and hopefully you could get them lynched for it. However, there's no sense in staying on one person and leaving everyone else to deal with the other, not least because it looks lazy and real scummy. You may have noticed I've generally avoided people being very scummy and probed others, because I want to get to know what EVERYONE is like.

I only ask because you seemed to think Nerjin's technique of asking everyone questions was a poor one. Do you still think that? Is your vote on Ford at the moment just a pressure vote on someone you don't think is actually very scummy?

I guess I just wasn't accustomed to it. Now it does seem like a good idea, although I'm not sure I could think up that many questions and I find it far more simple to ask one at a time.
Also, yes, thanks for reminding me. Unvote Captain Ford and Vote Borno.
That was only a pressure vote, now I'll put my vote on the actual scummy looking one around here.

OK, what the hell. This is a fucking bandwagon right here, for all you newbs who don't know what the definition of the word is. I'm willing to accept this as a lazy towny trying for an easy lynch, because there are only two scum. But really, REASONS, ASSHOLE.
[/stillgrumpy]

[Nerjin]

Life got in the way. No post today.

[Remuthra]

Too busy lately to be an effective townie, so I'd like to request a replacement. Sorry about that.

[Captain Ford]

Really? That's kind of odd, then, because superBlast was voting Remuthra with intent to kill him, whereas you're not. Why the discrepancy there?

Remuthra is throwing off scumtells with practically every post he makes. Truth be told, though, I've seen town newbies do many of those things, but not so many of them in a row.

I feel like I could probably press Remuthra into a newbie death spiral (as you call it) if I tried (like I did to +!!scientist!!+ in the last game). But I don't think that's productive and borno's behavior stood out to me more. Particularly the part where he voted superBlast for a "slip" that was actually a valid point. He then unvotes later (Reply #134) stating "you screwed up, and you're still scummy, but I unvote you for now".

Borno: My goodness. The spoilered stuff wasn't a case against you. It was just my personal notes. Of course they're not every favorable. I'm suspicious of you.

It should be telling that I only found two things worthy of questioning you about.

*cracks knuckles* I'm going to enjoy this more than I probably should.

That's complete WIFOM. "I didn't ask the scum IC a scum related question so therefore I am town!" Logic doesn't really work in the mafia boards. That's two slip-ups, superBlast. But anyway, if you were scum and had one player aggressively attacking you and a lurker, who (if any) would you kill at night?

What did you mean when you said "Logic doesn't really work in the mafia boards"?

No, I meant the bolded part logic. As in, the WIFOMy part. I thought that was obvious, apparently it was not, so let me make this clear. If no-one were to use logic in mafia boards, mafia would not exist as we know it.

...when you capitalize a word that isn't a proper noun, it looks like the start of a sentence.

And what are you saying "no" to? I asked you for clarification. You're reacting like I accused you of something.

Why did you unvote Remuthra? Do you understand why "not fair" isn't a good reason?

No, I had actually stated that the question was 'good', so I couldn't vote him over that. And not fair is a good reason to vote/unvote someone. For example, if you were to vote someone with no reason, that wouldn't be very fair, would it? No. And it'd get you lynched. So yes, unvoting someone for not being very fair is a good reason.

The answer I was fishing for was: "You should only unvote someone because they're not suspicious, not because suspecting them isn't fair." Voting someone in the RVS stage isn't fair, but we do it anyway because we have to create something to work with.

Unvoting in that manner relieved the pressure from him, hurting your chances of getting a read on him. That's why it was wrong.

Reply #134: He responds unnecessarily to IronyOwl's read on him. He also comes off as being more concerned about pandering to Irony than about finding scum.

It wasn't unnecessary, and it wasn't pandering. I was actually curious as to why he found me scummy. And I'm afraid you've mixed up what bandwagoning means. As explained in Shakerag's post, bandwagoning is when you vote someone while other people are too without any good reason.

"sorry about that"
"I really don't want to screw it up this time"
"I'll be less serious from now on"

That's pandering.

Spoiler: Nitpicking at my personal notes (click to show/hide)

First of all, these were my notes, and not my case against you. If I haven't brought it up outside my notes, it probably means I didn't think it was worth bringing up.

I included it for a couple reasons. First among them being this is a BM, and I think it might be educational. Actually, no, the first one is that I spent hours on it and gave myself a headache, so there's no way I was going to let it go to waste.

But yeah, I'm not really going to hold the stuff in this spoiler against you. I can see how you saw this as an attack against you.

That doesn't mean I'm not going to tear your arguments apart, though.

Reply #77 (By Borno): Odd wording in what he says to superBlast. "In mafia, acting nervous or unconfident is never a good idea, even if you're scum." feels like it should be "In mafia, acting nervous or unconfident is never a good idea, even if you're town."

I don't see why. I say scum because most newbscum are nervous and unconfident, and so will probably act as such. Of course, it does go both ways, but more so for scum than for town. But I another thing: Why does this matter in any way?

Dunno. It probably doesn't. I just wrote down what I was thinking about.

Reply #107 (by Borno): Borno's reasons for suspecting Nerjin were bad. Suspecting Nerjin for using an IC voice and not for what he said in it is a fallacy. He's also wrong when he calls out what superBlast said as WIFOM.

It is WIFOM. My post aptly explains why, had you actually read it. Here is the relevant statement summing up the WIFOM superBlast spewed.

I didn't ask the scum IC a scum related question so therefore I am town!

Also, it wasn't just the voice, it was what he said, which all was generally portraying him as a townie. I lifted the vote when he answered though, so that tell is completely null.

1. It's not WIFOM. The whole purpose of the scum IC is to allow the little scumlets to ask questions without exposing themselves. Calling it WIFOM is silly.
2. You didn't make that clear when you voted Nerjin. You said him using an IC voice was scummy, and you didn't nitpick at WHAT he said. But yes, you unvoted him later, and you clarified your reasons for doing so. You may have noticed that I haven't held this against you.

Reply #117: -snip-

Did you know it was still RVS at that stage? No? Well, it was. I was voting him for pressure (And his WIFOM), and unvoted when he answered me.

Yeah, it was. Yeah, you were, and yeah, you did.

This part was about superBlast, not you.

(As with the last set of spoilers, this one will also have bias. I started out more suspicious of him and became more objective about halfway through I discovered that my original suspicions were unfounded)
Reply #77: Votes Nerjin for using an IC voice. What the fuck. Sure, this is probably a pressure vote, but he doesn't let it go later on.
+    Answer to Soldier's RVS question is okay.
+    FoS's Remuthra for ignoring an invalid question. Except borno said "What question is so wrong that you chose to ignore it outright?", which indicates he didn't actually read the conversation and just saw an opportunity to FoS somebody.
+    Asks spaghetti a question (and not a bad one).
+    Answers spaghetti's question (which was directed at Nerjin), but his answer is off. Equating scumhunting with asking questions sounds like someone who has only a superficial understanding of scumhunting.
+    Calls out superBlast for being nervous, which he's correct about. He offers friendly advice. Nothing scummy here. (not sarcasm)

Firstly, no shit. Secondly, I did let it go as soon as he answered me, in post #107. Thirdly, it was a rhetorical question. Fourthly… Uh? I never equated anything to anything in that post.

Yeah, this is account of things that happened. You haven't done that stuff yet, so it isn't mentioned here. It is mentioned later, though.

Also: "Asking questions is scum hunting" - your words.

-snip-
RVS questions can be used as role fishing. In fact, they're pretty much the only questions that can be used for role fishing.

If you're not the doctor, you don't have anything to worry about.

Reply #146: He's a bit too enthusiastic to bus another random player to save a townie. He's correct about speaking up in the player's defense, though. And if he's convinced someone is town, then anyone else is a better target, I guess.
+    Calls out Remuthra for failing to defend himself (which is accurate).
+    Calls out the lurker for lurking.

Not a 'random' player. I'd of searched through the thread, and if I couldn't find anyone to attack, I wouldn't attack anyone.

You didn't say that. It's good to be explicit about these things.

tl;dr, Almost your entire argument against me is made up out of misinterpreting what I say and taking my posts out of context. I was suspicious of superBlast before, but now I know for sure that you two are scum. Vote Captain Ford.

I'm sorry, those were my notes, not a case against you. Although, I see now that I didn't really give you much of a choice. My sincerest apologies for the misunderstanding and for forcing you into a corner like that. It isn't really fair that I chose to do that to you and not to anyone else.

But your overreactive OMGUS is way out of line with what I posted. I was very clear about the fact that my notes contained bias, and that I never expected anyone to read them. You even quoted that part. I'm guessing you either didn't read it or didn't understand it.

Calling me out as scum for that is pretty far out there. I put a pressure vote on you and asked a couple of questions. Maybe you'd like to try this again?

BornoNQT: Scum Bandwagon city, population Borno NQT.

Scum tells include: over-speculation bordering WIFOM, Bandwagoned Nerjin in the RVS, anti-logic, unvoted Nerjin after reasonable response only to jump back on the Blastwagon, very defensive when prodded mid-game, jumps on the Remuthra train with dubious reasons, unvotes when grilled, worried about being lynched in his sleep. Town tells: extends. Null tells: appears to have some experience, aggressive.

OK, what the fuck.  Over speculation bordering WIFOM? The only WIFOM is the WIFOM which I joke admitted to. Bandwagon in RVS? P. I had perfectly good reasons for voting Nerjin, mainly pressure. Anti-logic? Read above. Yes, I did unvote Nerjin, no, I didn't bandwagon. You say I'm defensive? In the very same post you say as a null tell that I'm aggressive. My reasons for voting Remuthra was pressure. Unvotes when satisfied with answers. Also, please don't tell me you're scolding me for asking not to be killed in my sleep, it was a joke and someone else had done it too, yet you didn't seem to notice. All these reasons are pulled out of your ass so that Captain Ford, your scum buddy, wouldn't get voted out D1.

Naming the scumteam D1 - *sigh*. I'll let the ICs tell you what's up with that.

It's possible that NQT is town, and defending another town player. It's also possible that NQT is scum, and defending a town player. You already admitted you'd defend another person you thought was town. Accusing NQT of being scum for taking actions that you yourself defended is illogical and inconsistent, isn't it?

Spoiler: Off Topic (click to show/hide)

Sorry if I've come off a bit harsh, I'm moving houses and it's pretty stressful. Also, I might need to replace if anyone thinks I'm not posting enough, due to house moving. It sucks that all this stuff happens in the first mafia game I'm actually enjoying (even though it might not sound like it).

I can sympathize. Do you like your new place?

[borno]

It should be telling that I only found two things worthy of questioning you about.

Well then I done goofed up.

That's complete WIFOM. "I didn't ask the scum IC a scum related question so therefore I am town!" Logic doesn't really work in the mafia boards. That's two slip-ups, superBlast. But anyway, if you were scum and had one player aggressively attacking you and a lurker, who (if any) would you kill at night?

What did you mean when you said "Logic doesn't really work in the mafia boards"?

No, I meant the bolded part logic. As in, the WIFOMy part. I thought that was obvious, apparently it was not, so let me make this clear. If no-one were to use logic in mafia boards, mafia would not exist as we know it.

...when you capitalize a word that isn't a proper noun, it looks like the start of a sentence.

And what are you saying "no" to? I asked you for clarification. You're reacting like I accused you of something.

I realised that and considered editing my post, but really didn't feel like it. And I was saying no about what you said.

(As with the last set of spoilers, this one will also have bias. I started out more suspicious of him and became more objective about halfway through I discovered that my original suspicions were unfounded)
Reply #77: Votes Nerjin for using an IC voice. What the fuck. Sure, this is probably a pressure vote, but he doesn't let it go later on.
+    Answer to Soldier's RVS question is okay.
+    FoS's Remuthra for ignoring an invalid question. Except borno said "What question is so wrong that you chose to ignore it outright?", which indicates he didn't actually read the conversation and just saw an opportunity to FoS somebody.
+    Asks spaghetti a question (and not a bad one).
+    Answers spaghetti's question (which was directed at Nerjin), but his answer is off. Equating scumhunting with asking questions sounds like someone who has only a superficial understanding of scumhunting.
+    Calls out superBlast for being nervous, which he's correct about. He offers friendly advice. Nothing scummy here. (not sarcasm)

Firstly, no shit. Secondly, I did let it go as soon as he answered me, in post #107. Thirdly, it was a rhetorical question. Fourthly… Uh? I never equated anything to anything in that post.

Yeah, this is account of things that happened. You haven't done that stuff yet, so it isn't mentioned here. It is mentioned later, though.

Also: "Asking questions is scum hunting" - your words.

But... But... I checked the post... GOD DAMNIT!

tl;dr, Almost your entire argument against me is made up out of misinterpreting what I say and taking my posts out of context. I was suspicious of superBlast before, but now I know for sure that you two are scum. Vote Captain Ford.

I'm sorry, those were my notes, not a case against you. Although, I see now that I didn't really give you much of a choice. My sincerest apologies for the misunderstanding and for forcing you into a corner like that. It isn't really fair that I chose to do that to you and not to anyone else.

But your overreactive OMGUS is way out of line with what I posted. I was very clear about the fact that my notes contained bias, and that I never expected anyone to read them. You even quoted that part. I'm guessing you either didn't read it or didn't understand it.

Calling me out as scum for that is pretty far out there. I put a pressure vote on you and asked a couple of questions. Maybe you'd like to try this again?

Ugh. Like I said, it had been a long day, and when I finally arrived to my current living space, went to the mafia boards to find what looked to me like a huge angry scummy post. I even ignored the bias warning and went ahead with my counter angry post. Sorry for that. 

Spoiler: Off Topic (click to show/hide)

Sorry if I've come off a bit harsh, I'm moving houses and it's pretty stressful. Also, I might need to replace if anyone thinks I'm not posting enough, due to house moving. It sucks that all this stuff happens in the first mafia game I'm actually enjoying (even though it might not sound like it).

I can sympathize. Do you like your new place?

Yeah, it's pretty nice, we're renting it for a year, then we're going to buy a house for real. Right now we're still in an apartment flat though.
Feeling a bit better now, and just realised how much of an ass I made of myself. I probably deserve getting lynched now, it seems as though I probably won't be able to beat my 2 day record in mafia. Also, sorry if I didn't answer all your questions, I'm not really in the mood right now, I just skimmed over everything and answered what I thought was important.

[Teneb]

kingfisher informed me he cannot replace for Remuthra. Thus, this game is now in need of a replacement.

[Captain Ford]

Well then I done goofed up.

Yeah, you did, but like I said, I can see why you did, and your tone makes sense in light of that mistake. I'm not going to hold this mistake against you.

But... But... I checked the post... GOD DAMNIT!

That's what I thought.

Ugh. Like I said, it had been a long day, and when I finally arrived to my current living space, went to the mafia boards to find what looked to me like a huge angry scummy post. I even ignored the bias warning and went ahead with my counter angry post. Sorry for that. 

That sounds entirely reasonable.

Spoiler: Off Topic (click to show/hide)

Sorry if I've come off a bit harsh, I'm moving houses and it's pretty stressful. Also, I might need to replace if anyone thinks I'm not posting enough, due to house moving. It sucks that all this stuff happens in the first mafia game I'm actually enjoying (even though it might not sound like it).

I can sympathize. Do you like your new place?

Yeah, it's pretty nice, we're renting it for a year, then we're going to buy a house for real. Right now we're still in an apartment flat though.

Glad to hear it. I hope everything goes smoothly for you.

Feeling a bit better now, and just realised how much of an ass I made of myself. I probably deserve getting lynched now, it seems as though I probably won't be able to beat my 2 day record in mafia. Also, sorry if I didn't answer all your questions, I'm not really in the mood right now, I just skimmed over everything and answered what I thought was important.

You don't deserve to get lynched for that, actually. Especially since you admitted to it. Just answer the rest of the questions when you have time.

Also, yes, thanks for reminding me. Unvote Captain Ford and Vote Borno.
That was only a pressure vote, now I'll put my vote on the actual scummy looking one around here.

Spaghetti7: Why is it you find borno to be the scummiest one around here?

(@Borno: Technically, he has a reason for voting you -- you're the "actual scummy looking one around here". But he needs to explain why that is)