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Total Members Voted: 4

[GreatWyrmGold]

They're unlikely to kill us on sight; if we don't stick to our current crop, they're our best bet.

They're only *less* likely to kill us on sight *based solely* on their societal structure. We don't know any other facets of their culture, and there's a lot of other things that could be in their culture that would make them want to eat our brains.
Also note that they just BARELY made it into the *some* hatred catagory, right on the threshold of *some* and *a lot*.

Still makes them a better bet than humans or elves.

Perhaps, but I'd imagine that scouting =/= thieving...

No, but staying hidden is pretty close to staying hidden, and as for collecting and returning valuable info, I already covered that they're a bronze-age society, and their priests are well-educated. These are good indicators for their 'artisan' intellect, (their artisans being thieves), and I'd bet they'd make top-notch scouts.

Remember, though, there's differences between sneaking-in-thieving (where you can find places almost no one is and use distractions) and sneaking-in-scouting (where you have to be on guard 24/7 against every hunter, woodcutter, bear, etc).
Thieves are not scouts and scouts are not thieves. They are probably better scouts than they would be if they weren't so good at thieving, but they're not great scouts.

Better a friend with dwarves than nothing to them.

Depends on the dwarves, and establishing a friendship might even prove counter-productive to becoming a god. Familiarity/knowledge would be the enemy to our deception.

The reason we'd become a god is so that we'd have power over dwarves. A powerful friend would also have power.
Besides, we are mutant dragons; we will probably live long enough to outlast several dwarven generations. Now, a friend; a few generations out, a leader; a few more, a god.

But...organizing...
If multiple points are spread through multiple parts of the post, they (quotes) can really help keep things cohesive...

Agreed. They also let people remind others of what's been said and themselves of what they just said.

[Rolepgeek]

They're going to good at scouting. For a society based on thievery? You don't think perhaps, that those sixty armed personnel might be for scouting out good places to heist? What with thir poor news at martial skill? They're going to be good at scouting.

[GreatWyrmGold]

They're going to good at scouting. For a society based on thievery? You don't think perhaps, that those sixty armed personnel might be for scouting out good places to heist? What with thir poor news at martial skill? They're going to be good at scouting.

There's also a difference between casing a joint and trying to find goblin settlements. One involves sneaking around places you're vaguely familiar with, the other is comparable to finding a needle somewhere on the floor in a dark room, with a bunch of books, straw, and stuff scattered across it, and you're a mouse.

[GrizzlyAdamz]

snip

Still makes them a better bet than humans or elves.

You may want to hedge that bet....

snip

Remember, though, there's differences between sneaking-in-thieving (where you can find places almost no one is and use distractions) and sneaking-in-scouting (where you have to be on guard 24/7 against every hunter, woodcutter, bear, etc).
Thieves are not scouts and scouts are not thieves. They are probably better scouts than they would be if they weren't so good at thieving, but they're not great scouts.

Argh, there are fewer people, fewer anything that would be interested in us in the wilderness than in a city. We aren't based on blending in- we're diminutive lizards. We stick out in an elven/human/dwarven city. We're based on being completely unseen, as in hidden. Being hidden is being hidden no matter where you're doing it, (commense finding a hypothetical that makes a difference, GO), so in all facets scouting the wilderness should be easier than thieving a city. Sight/sound we have covered. Smell? Civ pets can smell too. Tracks are the only base uncovered, and we're diminutive lizard people that live and make do in a swamp; I'm sure we have tricks.
Only one sure way to find out, and imo it's a better bet than what we'd find with the dwarves.

snip

The reason we'd become a god is so that we'd have power over dwarves. A powerful friend would also have power.
Besides, we are mutant dragons; we will probably live long enough to outlast several dwarven generations. Now, a friend; a few generations out, a leader; a few more, a god.

Wait a second, our objective is to become a god, not a friend remember? And I still don't see a reason a long-lived friend won't just be a venerated ancestral ally after, huh, 1000 years. Dwarves are long-lived, and that plan is officially very far-sighted.

snip

Meh, I'm more inclined to think the master thieves are the ones doing the stalking/scouting, as they know what to look for. The diminutive warriors might have poor martial skill, but they're still warriors.

snip

1.We aint lookin for goblin settlements. 2.The lizards would have had to sneak around the town when it was completely unknown to them before it became vaguely familiar. 3.Except we'd be a beetle and the town could be slightly larger than a needle.



-edit
btw I just want to point out, we're all still operating on baseless assumptions originating from the DF universe. For instance, dwarves could have a lifespan of 10 years. Or they could be immortal. Just saying.

@zanzet
Do our master-thieves have an equivalent of [trapavoid]? Are they similar to kobold thieves from DF?

[GreatWyrmGold]

snip

Still makes them a better bet than humans or elves.

You may want to hedge that bet....

Hey, someone who doesn't want to kill us is a lot better than someone who does.

snip

Remember, though, there's differences between sneaking-in-thieving (where you can find places almost no one is and use distractions) and sneaking-in-scouting (where you have to be on guard 24/7 against every hunter, woodcutter, bear, etc).
Thieves are not scouts and scouts are not thieves. They are probably better scouts than they would be if they weren't so good at thieving, but they're not great scouts.

Argh, there are fewer people, fewer anything that would be interested in us in the wilderness than in a city. We aren't based on blending in- we're diminutive lizards. We stick out in an elven/human/dwarven city. We're based on being completely unseen, as in hidden. Being hidden is being hidden no matter where you're doing it, (commense finding a hypothetical that makes a difference, GO), so in all facets scouting the wilderness should be easier than thieving a city. Sight/sound we have covered. Smell? Civ pets can smell too. Tracks are the only base uncovered, and we're diminutive lizard people that live and make do in a swamp; I'm sure we have tricks.
Only one sure way to find out, and imo it's a better bet than what we'd find with the dwarves.

1. There's still lots of things to worry about. And while we're on it, stealth in a swamp is a lot different that stealth in a city...
2. Scouting for goblins is an uncertain, delayed, and questionable advantage over chatting with dwarves. Certainly, if dwarves turn out to not work well for us, by all means scout for goblins, but at this point they have about equal potential for utility, so let's head to the closer ones we know are nearby.

snip

The reason we'd become a god is so that we'd have power over dwarves. A powerful friend would also have power.
Besides, we are mutant dragons; we will probably live long enough to outlast several dwarven generations. Now, a friend; a few generations out, a leader; a few more, a god.

Wait a second, our objective is to become a god, not a friend remember? And I still don't see a reason a long-lived friend won't just be a venerated ancestral ally after, huh, 1000 years. Dwarves are long-lived, and that plan is officially very far-sighted.

1. Our goals vary. For me, godhood is a mean rather than an end.
2. Dwarves typically don't age that much slower than humans. A mere thousand years was enough to turn a saintly person into a god without further interference, it's enough to turn a constant mighty aid into a god.

snip

1.We aint lookin for goblin settlements. 2.The lizards would have had to sneak around the town when it was completely unknown to them before it became vaguely familiar. 3.Except we'd be a beetle and the town could be slightly larger than a needle.

1. Most of your arguments for scouting have included notes about how we should find gobline.]
2. They probably started when it was just a village and passed the knowledge through the generations. The current crop has no need to be able to sneak around in unfamiliar cities.
3. We're in a swamp. Swamps tend to have lots of foliage. That blocks views of towns.

-edit
btw I just want to point out, we're all still operating on baseless assumptions originating from the DF universe. For instance, dwarves could have a lifespan of 10 years. Or they could be immortal. Just saying.

That's not just DF, that's fantasy in general. But yes.

-----

I'd like to repeat my position: FOR NOW, WE SHOULD INVESTIGATE THE DWARVES WITHOUT MASTICATION OR DIGESTION THEREOF, AND IF THAT DOESN'T OR CAN'T WORK OUT WE CAN THEN TRY TO FIND GOBLINS OR SOMETHING.

[Remuthra]

FOR NOW, WE SHOULD INVESTIGATE THE DWARVES WITHOUT MASTICATION OR DIGESTION THEREOF, AND IF THAT DOESN'T OR CAN'T WORK OUT WE CAN THEN TRY TO FIND GOBLINS OR SOMETHING.

PLUS ONE

[Rolepgeek]

Why do you guys care about getting more followers? Your current ones can sever heads just fine, and you don't gain power from them. Do hydra things. Kill other hydra by tearing their heart halfway out and watch as their body fails to be able to regenerate blood fast enough, and they suffer from anemia without dying in misery and pain until they finally heal, and all the lost and repost blood prompts the body to create so much that their arteries burst, simultaneously, more and more as the blood loss is not enough until...they explode.

[Remuthra]

Because we have a fixation about being the hydaesque god of everything?

[GreatWyrmGold]

Why do you guys care about getting more followers? Your current ones can sever heads just fine, and you don't gain power from them. Do hydra things.

Why?

Kill other hydra by tearing their heart halfway out and watch as their body fails to be able to regenerate blood fast enough, and they suffer from anemia without dying in misery and pain until they finally heal, and all the lost and repost blood prompts the body to create so much that their arteries burst, simultaneously, more and more as the blood loss is not enough until...they explode.

I'm not sure if that works, and if it does it's cruel.

[GrizzlyAdamz]

Hey, someone who doesn't want to kill us is a lot better than someone who does.

.....There's no guarantee they don't want to....

1. There's still lots of things to worry about. And while we're on it, stealth in a swamp is a lot different that stealth in a city...
2. Scouting for goblins is an uncertain, delayed, and questionable advantage over chatting with dwarves. Certainly, if dwarves turn out to not work well for us, by all means scout for goblins, but at this point they have about equal potential for utility, so let's head to the closer ones we know are nearby.

1. Bah, name them. I contend they're pretty cool doods that aren't afraid of anything, and can HANDLE IT.
2. I don'tno longer want goblins! STOP SAYING I DO! I want more info before we charge into someone's territory. I've been contesting your assertions about dwarven safety, not giving reasons we should go to goblins.

1. Our goals vary. For me, godhood is a mean rather than an end.
2. Dwarves typically don't age that much slower than humans. A mere thousand years was enough to turn a saintly person into a god without further interference, it's enough to turn a constant mighty aid into a god.

1. A means to what end?
2. We have literally no info on that, but in DF I got migrants over 100 pretty routinely. Also: again, 1000 years IS A REALLY LONG PLAN. Also: a person that lives according to the pre-set ideals of a culture and lives for an unnatural amount of time is different from a multi-headed, fickle monster that comes and squats on your porch.

1. Most of your arguments for scouting have included notes about how we should find gobline.]
2. They probably started when it was just a village and passed the knowledge through the generations. The current crop has no need to be able to sneak around in unfamiliar cities.
3. We're in a swamp. Swamps tend to have lots of foliage. That blocks views of towns.

1.They used to, and that was still kindof a separate issue from scouting. Scouting provides info, and when I was pressing for the goblins it was just another very useful thing to do that would have benefited my cause. So of course I'd press it as well. I've been trying to show my distance from the goblins since that quote I had a few posts ago.
2.They are still master thiefs, and to suggest they lose all their skills when navigating in unknown territory is absurd. Cities change, and if their race somehow lost the ability to learn and adapt, they would have stagnated as a society and their hiding places found in short order.
3. It also blocks views of very small master-thief lizard people. Towns are also noisy, smelly, and create clearings. And roads.

Why do you guys care about getting more followers? Your current ones can sever heads just fine, and you don't gain power from them. Do hydra things. [...animal torture]

Well, followers do all sorts of things. Meatshields. Resource gatherers. Makeshift food. Laborers. The lizards made our cave anti-fire/cold etc.
-A hypothetical example with traditional dwarves: we convince them we're gods, they outfit us with steel armor and claw-razors.
That doesn't seem like a 'hydra thing', and we only have limb generation, nothing for cuts/bruises/bleeding.

Because we have a fixation about being the hydaesque god of everything?

This is a good goal in/of itself.

Statement of position: Use our current minions to collect more info about the world, then make and enact a more educated plan.

Our master thiefs would be better scouts than us at the very least.

[Remuthra]

"But certainly you want to kill those filthy fascists, right?"

...But dwarves are intrinsically communist.

[GrizzlyAdamz]

This is explicitly not DF, and the 'dwarves' we're dealing with are arranged in city-states.

[Remuthra]

I know. Still doesn't mean they're fascists, though.

[GrizzlyAdamz]

true, but it does mean they aren't intrinsically communist.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Hey, someone who doesn't want to kill us is a lot better than someone who does.

.....There's no guarantee they don't want to....

There's a much lower chance that dwarves will than that humans or elves will.

1. There's still lots of things to worry about. And while we're on it, stealth in a swamp is a lot different that stealth in a city...
2. Scouting for goblins is an uncertain, delayed, and questionable advantage over chatting with dwarves. Certainly, if dwarves turn out to not work well for us, by all means scout for goblins, but at this point they have about equal potential for utility, so let's head to the closer ones we know are nearby.

1. Bah, name them. I contend they're pretty cool doods that aren't afraid of anything, and can HANDLE IT.
2. I don'tno longer want goblins! STOP SAYING I DO! I want more info before we charge into someone's territory. I've been contesting your assertions about dwarven safety, not giving reasons we should go to goblins.

1. Wild animals, supplies, poisonous plants, quicksand, scouts, more wild animals, raiders, woodcutters, wild animals, rangers...None of those are terribly probable for a short trip, but put together over the course of a long journey, and you get trouble.
2. Sorry about that.

1. Our goals vary. For me, godhood is a mean rather than an end.
2. Dwarves typically don't age that much slower than humans. A mere thousand years was enough to turn a saintly person into a god without further interference, it's enough to turn a constant mighty aid into a god.

1. A means to what end?
2. We have literally no info on that, but in DF I got migrants over 100 pretty routinely. Also: again, 1000 years IS A REALLY LONG PLAN. Also: a person that lives according to the pre-set ideals of a culture and lives for an unnatural amount of time is different from a multi-headed, fickle monster that comes and squats on your porch.

1. Power, and from there who knows?
2. Well, in DF, humans routinely live to 120, so that's not saying much. Also, if we're immortal, and patient, we can take a thousand-year plan. And haven't you noticed? Cultures change. A lot. Even without major benefits from the changers.

1. Most of your arguments for scouting have included notes about how we should find gobline.]
2. They probably started when it was just a village and passed the knowledge through the generations. The current crop has no need to be able to sneak around in unfamiliar cities.
3. We're in a swamp. Swamps tend to have lots of foliage. That blocks views of towns.

1.They used to, and that was still kindof a separate issue from scouting. Scouting provides info, and when I was pressing for the goblins it was just another very useful thing to do that would have benefited my cause. So of course I'd press it as well. I've been trying to show my distance from the goblins since that quote I had a few posts ago.
2.They are still master thiefs, and to suggest they lose all their skills when navigating in unknown territory is absurd. Cities change, and if their race somehow lost the ability to learn and adapt, they would have stagnated as a society and their hiding places found in short order.
3. It also blocks views of very small master-thief lizard people. Towns are also noisy, smelly, and create clearings. And roads.

2. They'd be decent scouts, but not great or super. There's too many holes in a thief's knowledge to apply it to scouting wholesale. And while they can adapt, a city doesn't change its secret passages every few years; most of the exploitable stuff will be available for decades to come, meaning that the kobolds or whatever only need to be able to add small tweaks to their knowledge base.
3. Swamps are also noisy and smelly, and while they might create a clearing a mile across, that doesn't help if the city's a mile away from you. As for roads, you can't build a good road through a swamp. It's too...swampy.

Statement of position: Use our current minions to collect more info about the world, then make and enact a more educated plan.
Our master thiefs would be better scouts than us at the very least.

Better than us? Sure. But you know what strikes me as a good plan? Expand our allies and knowledge by contacting the dwarves before risking some of our few lizardies on a scouting trip.

true, but it does mean they aren't intrinsically communist.

Given the time period emulated, communism is probably more likely than fascism.