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Total Members Voted: 4

[GreatWyrmGold]

1. You pointed out that it wouldn't deter it, not that it wouldn't mitigate it. My point was that it would, "at the very least we won't be taken by surprise".

Wouldn't it be nicer not to be attacked at all?

2. How's that?

We don't have enough background info to guess, but I'm going to haphazardly say that showing up and protecting rather than eating them is a good first step.

3/4. You just stated yourself, they could be 4 klicks away. That sounds like walking distance. We, (or one of the living heads), could try to find out more about this.

Well, if the lizards knew about any goblins, they'd have mentioned it, which means we'd need to go elsewhere for info. The elves and humans would kill us on sight, and that leaves dwarves.

5. Not everything is DF, but until we know what isn't DF we should be wary of things which would be incredibly dangerous to us if it is, in fact, DF. Things like invincible 1-size-fits-all invisible cage traps which are so copious that mentioning that a dwarven fortress has them is practically redundant.
What would we gain by ignoring this? I'm thinking about when we first show up, not if they have a change of heart after we've established ourselves. We haven't ordered any scouts yet, and we wouldn't want to show up only to be caged before we speak to them.

If the GM would force us into an inexplicable abstraction present in DF and not even allow us obvious ways out (e.g, break the cage), I don't know if I'd want to play this anyways.

-1 to burning.

Finally, how do hydras get worshiped if they can't go ethereal?

[GrizzlyAdamz]

We'll just use flint rocks to start fires, then catch people, then burn them. Why? Because of our own inadequacies at being unable to breath fire like the dragons.

That sounds like a greatFUN pastime.


1. The gobbos quite possibly don't deal with assassination, thus the point is moot, however: being a 'god' doesn't preclude attack. There were various arguments here, (tantruming dwarfs for instance), to be made that were valid based only on meta-game assumptions. Assumptions that are now proven incorrect. Thus arguing the relative nice-ness between owning a goblin leadership position with your own staff vs a dwarven deity position solo is extraneous.

2. This is what I was trying to point out; none of us really knows how to get them to think us gods. Just showing up and hoping they don't shoot first and ask questions later might not be good for our health, and even if they don't we lack a cohesive strategy for achieving godhood.
Also: some heads will try to eat..
-ps, I think it's the straight-up unliving-ethereal-ness that gets them worshipped as gods.

3. I've been trying to avoid making overt suggestions, (I know, doing a shoddy job), so here it is: get some of them thieving lizard people to scout around further than 3 km. Specifically ask them about the other civs and their relations with them. Try to collect more info before waltzing into the (now thoroughly-)unknown quantity that is the local dwarven civ. In the meantime bide your time and get yourself fed.

5.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

So what you're saying concerning contingency plans based on the DF universe is that you 1. would have preferred the universe that we now know the thread currently occupies and 2. therefore operated within the assumption that it (the thread's universe) was what we now know it is.

Eh, well, this is after all on a subforum of DF forums, (with characters & elements reminiscent of the game's universe). That you didn't think of it doesn't mean it shouldn't have been thought of.


The best I'd hope for is our heads matching the gods of their pantheon-- which we don't know and could use some scouting to learn.
-also: greek city-states might be fun to deal with, god or not...

[Metruption]

Head Name: Tasty
Personality: A vociferous head with a long multipronged tounge, but he is mute so he has to use his tongue to communicate.

[GreatWyrmGold]

1. The gobbos quite possibly don't deal with assassination, thus the point is moot,

True, but my statement was valid when I said it due to the prevailing assumptions.

however: being a 'god' doesn't preclude attack.

It does, however, make it much less likely. Lynch mobs are more likely for deicide than mere homicide, for instance.

2. This is what I was trying to point out; none of us really knows how to get them to think us gods. Just showing up and hoping they don't shoot first and ask questions later might not be good for our health, and even if they don't we lack a cohesive strategy for achieving godhood.

We've got a better shot with the dwarves than with humans, elves, or wandering randomly through the wilderness hoping we find something.

Also: some heads will try to eat..

And they will get overruled. With our teeth, if need be.

-ps, I think it's the straight-up unliving-ethereal-ness that gets them worshipped as gods.

The GM explicitly stated that hydras are sometimes worshiped as gods by goblins and dwarves.

3. I've been trying to avoid making overt suggestions, (I know, doing a shoddy job), so here it is: get some of them thieving lizard people to scout around further than 3 km. Specifically ask them about the other civs and their relations with them. Try to collect more info before waltzing into the (now thoroughly-)unknown quantity that is the local dwarven civ. In the meantime bide your time and get yourself fed.

Somehow, I can't imagine this would be too effective; even if the little guys could carry out such an expedition without being captured or killed, would they and would they have a chance of bringing back useful data?

5.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

So what you're saying concerning contingency plans based on the DF universe is that you 1. would have preferred the universe the thread currently occupies and 2. therefore operated within the assumption that it (the thread's universe) was what it is.

Huh?

Eh, well, this is after all on a subforum of DF forums, (with characters & elements reminiscent of the game's universe). That you didn't think of it doesn't mean it shouldn't have been thought of.

Well excuse me for expecting basic logic and non-cruel-evil GMs.

The best I'd hope for is our heads matching the gods of their pantheon-- which we don't know and could use some scouting to learn.

Or we could try a simple mutual back-scratching. There's a few things I can think of we could give them, like protection, lizardy servants, and an All-U-Can-Eat Hydra Head BBQ.

[GrizzlyAdamz]

1. "True, but my statement was valid when I said it due to the prevailing assumptions.."
Yes, we both think our positions were valid. However, they aren't now, and despite my vested interest in my position I see no point in arguing over hypotheticals that will now have absolutely no bearing on the story.

2. "better" is a relative word, and without more knowledge the 'better' margin could be very thin indeed. thus more knowledge.
-what would the dwarves think of fratricide?
-hmm, went through and tried to find mention, only saw they were more likely to take on hydras. (not trying to argue here)

3.They're bronze-age, based on the sneaking arts, and their priests seem well-spoken. I figure they'd be able to handle it and it would be very valuable to have more info, maybe even a map? (hinthintnudgenudge)

4. That's my best guess involving why your answer,

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

If the GM would force us into an inexplicable abstraction present in DF and not even allow us obvious ways out (e.g, break the cage), I don't know if I'd want to play this anyways.

would be contiguous to my argument

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Not everything is DF, but until we know what isn't DF we should be wary of things which would be incredibly dangerous to us if it is, in fact, DF. Things like invincible 1-size-fits-all invisible cage traps which are so copious that mentioning that a dwarven fortress has them is practically redundant.
What would we gain by ignoring this? I'm thinking about when we first show up, not if they have a change of heart after we've established ourselves. We haven't ordered any scouts yet, and we wouldn't want to show up only to be caged before we speak to them.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

In my argument I had a few points:
1. This thread's universe could be DF's universe
2. There are things in DF's universe that would pose a major threat to us
3. We lose nothing by anticipating these potential dangers.

Your answer didn't address these directly, and in trying to make a response I had to figure out what I could respond to. So I tried to logic-out your answer, (which I wound up thinking more of an explanation), and included my guess so that further clarification could be made.

So what I think your argument was is "we don't need to worry about those contingencies because the universe they're based in is lousy." But all you actually said was 'that universe is lousy'.
By itself that seemed a non-sequitur/opinion, thus my consternation. My reply was why the contingency should still be worried about. In further response: much fun can be had through these unlogical mechanics, and such mechanics don't make the GM evil nor cruel, (see elves of amanareli). At least not in/of themselves.

tl/dr: tried to figure out where you were coming from-
Also I was modifying that post when you quoted me, it's still verbose but might make a smidge more sense?

Hmm, tails/legs would be better. (mass-creation exploit ftw)
How would this set us above an ally, or perhaps a beloved pet?...which they perpetually eat... (if we even get that far..)

-edit
ps, did you get my edit about dealing with greek city-states?
pps, I edit constantly to conserve space and try to refine my message..

[GreatWyrmGold]

2. "better" is a relative word, and without more knowledge the 'better' margin could be very thin indeed. thus more knowledge.

Let me add the word "much" before "better," as there's a pretty high chance that the elves or humans would try to kill us and next to no chance of stumbling on some goblins.

-what would the dwarves think of fratricide?

Probably not much if not justified.

-hmm, went through and tried to find mention, only saw they were more likely to take on hydras. (not trying to argue here)

That means they do.
That means it's possible for us to get worshiped by dwarves. Or at the very least, respected.

3.They're bronze-age, based on the sneaking arts, and their priests seem well-spoken. I figure they'd be able to handle it and it would be very valuable to have more info, maybe even a map? (hinthintnudgenudge)

The worries are that they would get found by passing elves/humans/dwarves/whatever and killed, or at best come back and report that they did not stumble into any goblins.

4. That's my best guess involving why your answer,

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

If the GM would force us into an inexplicable abstraction present in DF and not even allow us obvious ways out (e.g, break the cage), I don't know if I'd want to play this anyways.

would be contiguous to my argument

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Not everything is DF, but until we know what isn't DF we should be wary of things which would be incredibly dangerous to us if it is, in fact, DF. Things like invincible 1-size-fits-all invisible cage traps which are so copious that mentioning that a dwarven fortress has them is practically redundant.
What would we gain by ignoring this? I'm thinking about when we first show up, not if they have a change of heart after we've established ourselves. We haven't ordered any scouts yet, and we wouldn't want to show up only to be caged before we speak to them.

[spoiler]In my argument I had a few points:
1. This thread's universe could be DF's universe
2. There are things in DF's universe that would pose a major threat to us
3. We lose nothing by anticipating these potential dangers.

Well...
1. Except the GM said it's not.
2. True, but that's so in any universe.
3. Cage traps are something you simply can't prepare for. Any random spot in the wilderness could have a dwarven fortress, any spot in the dwarven fortress could have a cage trap. All we could do is send a bunch of cultists ahead of us to trigger the traps.

So what I think your argument was is "we don't need to worry about those contingencies because the universe they're based in is lousy." But all you actually said was 'that universe is lousy'.

What I said was, it would be "lousy" GMing to give us a Game Over[supTM[/sup for exploring a dwarven settlement for some BS reason like "Invisible, Unavoidable Cage Trap with Indestructible Quantum Space Cages."

By itself that seemed a non-sequitur/opinion, thus my consternation. My reply was why the contingency should still be worried about. In further response: much fun can be had through these unlogical mechanics, and such mechanics don't make the GM evil nor cruel, (see elves of amanareli). At least not in/of themselves.

Well, if you'll notice...
1. That game was rather comedic.
2. The caging did not happen to the PC.

Hmm, tails/legs would be better. (mass-creation exploit ftw)
How would this set us above an ally, or perhaps a beloved pet?...which they perpetually eat... (if we even get that far..)

There's something called "humor" I use sometimes...

-edit
ps, did you get my edit about dealing with greek city-states?
pps, I edit constantly to conserve space and try to refine my message..

No.

Remind me, where's the Greek city-states?

[Zanzetkuken The Great]

-ps, I think it's the straight-up unliving-ethereal-ness that gets them worshipped as gods.

The GM explicitly stated that hydras are sometimes worshiped as gods by goblins and dwarves.

That is incorrect.  I only said that dwarves and goblins are less hostile, and that the dwarves would have an easier time adjusting to a hydra.  I never said that hydras were worshiped.

[GreatWyrmGold]

-ps, I think it's the straight-up unliving-ethereal-ness that gets them worshipped as gods.

The GM explicitly stated that hydras are sometimes worshiped as gods by goblins and dwarves.

That is incorrect.  I only said that dwarves and goblins are less hostile, and that the dwarves would have an easier time adjusting to a hydra.  I never said that hydras were worshiped.

My bad.

[GrizzlyAdamz]

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

2. "better" is a relative word, and without more knowledge the 'better' margin could be very thin indeed. thus more knowledge.

Let me add the word "much" before "better," as there's a pretty high chance that the elves or humans would try to kill us and next to no chance of stumbling on some goblins.

1. Much is also a relative word. All we know about the dwarves is that they rolled a 15 on the 'how much they (inherently) hate us' scale, are governed in a system similar to greek city-states, and are within reach of our master thieves. This does not preclude them being insane, blood-thirsty, sapient-eating, stone-age slave-masters with a grudge against us or any other possible characteristic the GM can come up with. 'Much better' than 'likely to kill us on sight' isn't saying much, and with the (scant) amount of knowledge we have any one particular outcome of going directly to them is probably just as likely to occur if we wandered around in the wilderness.

Fair enough on the fratricide, though it depends on their unknown culture...

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

3.They're bronze-age, based on the sneaking arts, and their priests seem well-spoken. I figure they'd be able to handle it and it would be very valuable to have more info, maybe even a map? (hinthintnudgenudge)

The worries are that they would get found by passing elves/humans/dwarves/whatever and killed, or at best come back and report that they did not stumble into any goblins.

2. I understand the worry, but the fact that they're a society based around staying hidden from eyes actively searching for them should bode extremely well for not being found while scouting the wilderness.
This isn't necessarily for goblins, I'm just recommending we get more information, any information, on the rest of our surroundings. Not to mention more information from the elders- a local map could probably be had immediately, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try to find more about the world more than 3km away.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

3. My last response was to clarify a previous argument, one made prior to current information. Seeing as how the discussion from this point on doesn't have any further bearing on the story, I recommend we move it to PM, and I will respond there.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Hmm, tails/legs would be better. (mass-creation exploit ftw)
How would this set us above an ally, or perhaps a beloved pet?...which they perpetually eat... (if we even get that far..)

There's something called "humor" I use sometimes...

4. Yeah, I figured, I tried to splice up what I said in a fashion that acknowledged that. :\ I don't see how just helping out the dwarves instead of attacking them will instantly or in the long term elevate us above just being a friend. Heroic deeds I think would have a better (relative, but trying to be constructive) chance at bringing godhood- building a legend, vs building a friendship.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

snip

No.

Remind me, where's the Greek city-states?

Here you go,turn 8 contained it. Technically it'd be dwarven city-states.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

2. "better" is a relative word, and without more knowledge the 'better' margin could be very thin indeed. thus more knowledge.

Let me add the word "much" before "better," as there's a pretty high chance that the elves or humans would try to kill us and next to no chance of stumbling on some goblins.

1. Much is also a relative word. All we know about the dwarves is that they rolled a 15 on the 'how much they (inherently) hate us' scale, are governed in a system similar to greek city-states, and are within reach of our master thieves. This does not preclude them being insane, blood-thirsty, sapient-eating, stone-age slave-masters with a grudge against us or any other possible characteristic the GM can come up with. 'Much better' than 'likely to kill us on sight' isn't saying much, and with the (scant) amount of knowledge we have any one particular outcome of going directly to them is probably just as likely to occur if we wandered around in the wilderness.

They're unlikely to kill us on sight; if we don't stick to our current crop, they're our best bet.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

3.They're bronze-age, based on the sneaking arts, and their priests seem well-spoken. I figure they'd be able to handle it and it would be very valuable to have more info, maybe even a map? (hinthintnudgenudge)

The worries are that they would get found by passing elves/humans/dwarves/whatever and killed, or at best come back and report that they did not stumble into any goblins.

2. I understand the worry, but the fact that they're a society based around staying hidden from eyes actively searching for them should bode extremely well for not being found while scouting the wilderness.

Perhaps, but I'd imagine that scouting =/= thieving...

This isn't necessarily for goblins, I'm just recommending we get more information, any information, on the rest of our surroundings. Not to mention more information from the elders- a local map could probably be had immediately, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try to find more about the world more than 3km away.

Alright, yeah. A bit of scouting would be fine if you're not just hoping to find goblins. That would be too much risk for too little and uncertain reward.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Hmm, tails/legs would be better. (mass-creation exploit ftw)
How would this set us above an ally, or perhaps a beloved pet?...which they perpetually eat... (if we even get that far..)

There's something called "humor" I use sometimes...

4. Yeah, I figured, I tried to splice up what I said in a fashion that acknowledged that. :\ I don't see how just helping out the dwarves instead of attacking them will instantly or in the long term elevate us above just being a friend. Heroic deeds I think would have a better (relative, but trying to be constructive) chance at bringing godhood- building a legend, vs building a friendship.

Better a friend with dwarves than nothing to them.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

snip

No.
Remind me, where's the Greek city-states?

Here you go,turn 8 contained it. Technically it'd be dwarven city-states.

Ah, right. Thankee.

[SharpKris]

Spoiler
Spoiler
Spoiler
Spoiler

we were missing some

[Rolepgeek]

Why does everyone feel the need to constantly quote? Isn't that the point of having those numbers? So you don't need to?

[GrizzlyAdamz]

They're unlikely to kill us on sight; if we don't stick to our current crop, they're our best bet.

They're only *less* likely to kill us on sight *based solely* on their societal structure. We don't know any other facets of their culture, and there's a lot of other things that could be in their culture that would make them want to eat our brains.
Also note that they just BARELY made it into the *some* hatred catagory, right on the threshold of *some* and *a lot*.

Perhaps, but I'd imagine that scouting =/= thieving...

No, but staying hidden is pretty close to staying hidden, and as for collecting and returning valuable info, I already covered that they're a bronze-age society, and their priests are well-educated. These are good indicators for their 'artisan' intellect, (their artisans being thieves), and I'd bet they'd make top-notch scouts.

Alright, yeah. A bit of scouting would be fine if you're not just hoping to find goblins. That would be too much risk for too little and uncertain reward.

Woohoo! For the record, I dropped the goblin idea back here:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

@hydras: Meta-gaming deflated, all I've got to say is: Our knowledge base should be expanded.

Better a friend with dwarves than nothing to them.

Depends on the dwarves, and establishing a friendship might even prove counter-productive to becoming a god. Familiarity/knowledge would be the enemy to our deception.

spoils r bad mk?

quotes r bad mk?

Damned if you spoil, damned if you don't. Spoilers = your eye protection, quotes are for reading convenience, (made prettier with spoilers).

[Rolepgeek]

Excessive use of spoilers is annoying, as is excessive use of quotes. If it's the guy right above you who just posted...you don't need to quote. Unless, of course, you're quoting five different people who weren't right above you.

[GrizzlyAdamz]

But...organizing...
If multiple points are spread through multiple parts of the post, they (quotes) can really help keep things cohesive...

-edit
plus the numbers change as points are added & moved past. Going
1a.
1b.
2b.
4.
7.
Feels icky & confusing.