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[smjjames]

@kot: Sounds like the bible-thumpingest parts of the rural bible belt here in the US. Except for the power that the clergy has over voting and some other stuff.

[mainiac]

Wasn't the removal of tariffs on internal trade and stuff like that the whole point of EU though? Backpedalling out of this would be very damn hard.

It wasn't the whole point and "backpeddling" it would be very easy.  The EU discourages unilateral action, not multilateral action.

Free trade means you dont engage in protectionism.  That's where one side tries to unilaterally gain an advantage over competition in other countries.  This would be the reverse protectionism, where all countries are agreeing that Greece needs a devaluation.  And you could even do a spectrum, you could for instance set a tarrif that devalues Greek purchasing power by 3% a year while doing Spain at a 2% rate and Italy at a 1% rate (just numbers I picked out of the air).  It means the creditors get paid and the debtors dont have debilitating unemployment.

If EU's laws start to get actively harmful for most EU countries, chances are they're either going to get changed, or the entire EU is going to go *poof*.

The remarkable thing is that the people harmed by the EU seem remarkably willing to tough it out.  I think this is based on the false belief that they think that EU institutions have a long time plan.  They obviously dont.  Their long term plan is to insist that the impossible is possible for long enough that the world economy grows enough to pull Europe out of the mess.

[Helgoland]

No, you just witnessed mainiac once more demonstrating that he doesn't know shit about how Europe works. He proposed tariffs on trade inside the EU, for crying out loud!

Yes, how silly of me to propose something that would improve the welfare of Europeans.  Everyone knows that's not how the EU works!  It's just the same fucking problem again.  "No, we have to be morons who are causing huge amount of harm because it's our culture and has been so for seven years, two months, twenty days, five hours and two minutes.  You dont throw that kind of history out in the name of doing your contractually obligated job."

Wasn't the removal of tariffs on internal trade and stuff like that the whole point of EU though? Backpedalling out of this would be very damn hard.

EU doesn't exist for sake of itself, or rather, it shouldn't do that. If EU's laws start to get actively harmful for most EU countries, chances are they're either going to get changed, or the entire EU is going to go *poof*. Second is much more likely than the first, though, given European econonmy Soviet-like policies for last couple years.

It would literally mean the end of the union. Free trade and open borders are among the core principles of the EU - if we give up those, we can scrap the whole thing. It would mean the end of this great experiment in post-nationalism and a return to the sort of states LW and scriver appear to favor. And I will not stand for that - and neither will large parts of the European population. This is a fine example of economics not trumping politics.

One might also add that this has been culturally ingrained not for "seven years, two months, twenty days, five hours and two minutes", but since May 1945. This is bit bigger than a couple years of crisis.

No, you just witnessed mainiac once more demonstrating that he doesn't know shit about how Europe works. He proposed tariffs on trade inside the EU, for crying out loud!

Says the guy who regularly espouses about how the EU should be one country without understanding how a single place except Germany works.

I know you like to disagree with me, but a tu quoque? Come on, you're better than that.

[scriver]

The point, Helgoland, is that you don't understand Europe either, so trying to discredit mainiac for with the good old "ignorant American" jargong is pointless.

[andrea]

some tariffs as a means of aid to a member country in dire straits doesn't actually seem that bad. It would show a willingness to aid growth rather than just force cuts in expenses, and it shows that countries in toruble will be supported by the rest.
The way greece was handles in reality probably did more damage than that. The general point of view here ( Italy) is that greece was abandoned. Sure, money was sent. But the emphasis of everything was cut down everything suddenly, without any work on growth or any hint of fraternal support that would be expected by countries in an union. And that money was loans at an interest anyway.

Of course, it might well be a simple issue of communication. Maybe so much more was done to help greece that isn't widely known and greek people just aren't able to sustain an economy. But if we are talking about an end of the union, public opinion matters. and it looks like at least parts of EU don't have a strong interest to see greece getting better again.

We are an union. We should care for each other, support each other. If it takes some bending of rules to achieve that? so be it. The current route preserves the words of the union, but there is no spirit in it.

[mainiac]

It would literally mean the end of the union. Free trade and open borders are among the core principles of the EU - if we give up those, we can scrap the whole thing. It would mean the end of this great experiment in post-nationalism and a return to the sort of states LW and scriver appear to favor. And I will not stand for that - and neither will large parts of the European population. This is a fine example of economics not trumping politics.

And you just assume that the politics are good.  What about a dysfunctional system that wastes resources and gives people very legitimate reasons to hate each other is good politics?  "Politics" seems to be a bullshit word for "People should do rationalize what German voters want even when it's impossible and wrong."  Hey guys, "politics" says that Global warming isn't a problem so Green energy shouldn't get subsidies.  "Politics" says that smog in china isn't a problem so Exhaust Baby Exhaust.

It took the French seven decades to build the EU.  It took the Germans seven years to destroy it.  The EU that exists today has lived up to non of the pan-nationalist dreams it represented.

[Zangi]

@shooting smugglers
Reckon smugglers will still smuggle if they get shot.  Its still money in spades. 

It just means smugglers are way more likely to bail out way before the rescue comes... or alternatively, decide to fight with a few hundred human shields on board if they get caught. 
At the least, take a hostage or 2 in the getaway boat, then throw them overboard later or something if they make it.

[ChairmanPoo]

Here's one nasty little secret from Southern Europe: Spain has long had "deportation agreements" with Morocco, which means that from time to time they hand immigrants over to Morocco authorities so that make sure they reach their original countries. Officially
Not-so-officially, it's known that instead of doing that, the goverment of Morocco puts them in buses and dumps them in the middle of the desert


And mind you, this was ten years ago, despite this Mad-Max style punishment, they kept coming. Now that their economies are imploded and their countries are rife with islamic state gun-wielding maniacs? I tend to assume they're even more eager to try their luck.

[LordSlowpoke]

spain apparently knows how to keep its shit together

why did its economy break

[mainiac]

why did its economy break

Because the EU transferred debts from banks throughout the Eurozone to the Spanish government.  Which is, y'know, great politics.

[LordSlowpoke]

oh, huh

so why did they keep the countries that debts were dumped on in the eurozone instead of paying for their shit

think of all the money we could be borrowing to fund silly shit now

[mainiac]

2008 was a scary time.  Everyone thought that it would be dangerous to waste time.  So Spain just bit the bullet right away and counted on the European solidarity to lead to a long term settlement later.

[Culise]

why did its economy break

Because the EU transferred debts from banks throughout the Eurozone to the Spanish government.  Which is, y'know, great politics.

And, you know, not because of a massive housing bubble that popped, dropping the bottom from under the Spanish banking system that systematically masked internal deficiencies and the depletion of capital reserves, coupled with rising labor costs that disincentivized domestic investment. 

[mainiac]

And, you know, not because of a massive housing bubble that popped, dropping the bottom from under the Spanish banking system that systematically masked internal deficiencies and the depletion of capital reserves, coupled with rising labor costs that disincentivized domestic investment.

You mean the rising labor costs that happened after the crisis when European solidarity took the form of the core saying "Fuck you, not only will we not help, we are going to actively promote deflation?"  Certainly a big part of why Spain hasn't recovered.

I was more talking about how the problem started in Spain though.

[Helgoland]

The point, Helgoland, is that you don't understand Europe either

Ya, as I said, tu quoque. You're not even Russian - you don't even have an excuse!

It took the French seven decades to build the EU.  It took the Germans seven years to destroy it.

I can and will take that as a personal insult.

And you just assume that the politics are good.

And what do you propose? The rule of 'common sense'? The rule of what is 'objectively true'? That's how totalitarian ideologies start, you know. By knowing what's right, and brushing everything else aside because it's obviously either malicious (see above) or simply misled.

We are an union. We should care for each other, support each other. If it takes some bending of rules to achieve that? so be it. The current route preserves the words of the union, but there is no spirit in it.

Now here's something that's actually worth talking about. I agree 100% with the bit I quoted - reform is needed, fundamental reform, and adherence to the letter of the law would be hugely counterproductive -, but try seeing this from the German perspective: We had the Agenda 2010, in which we reformed the shit out of our unemployment benefits (among others) and finally got competitive again. I was born in 1995, and I still remember that in my early childhood - up until 2006, I think - Germany was called 'the sick man of Europe'. We reformed, and it was painful; Schröder took the necessary steps, and took the risk of total political annihilation; we saw what was necessary, we acted accordingly, and today we benefit in the form of not being swept up in this crisis. Now compare and contrast with Greece, and, to a lesser extent, with large parts of the rest of the Eurozone: They didn't reform, they didn't do shit, and now they pay the price. Solidarity is all nice and well, but solidarity is kinda pointless if the person/entity you're being solidaric with doesn't try and fix their mistakes. Guess what made the latest rescue package - and the new talk of debt relief! - possible? The perspective of Greece actually getting their act together.
I know that the Greek people are suffering, and I know that they could be suffering less if the rest of the Eurozone handled things differently; but I think the above gives a fair impression of why the popular opinion (and I feel I should mention that I'm on the Greek-friendly side here) in Germany is against a great deal of leniency. Solidarity can only survive (!) when it's coupled with responsibility; as long as this requirement of responsibility is not outsorced to the EU, but instead kept by the state of Greece, Greece must live with the consequences of disregarding said responsibility. The solution is either a fundamentally reformed Greek state - hard to achieve, currently being pursued - or a stronger supernational entity which makes sure that said solidarity is not overtaxed, that it won't be called upon unnecessarily.