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[smjjames]

i have found an encyclopedia from the year 1968

who wants to learn random shit about their 1968 era country

United States?

[notquitethere]

one guy ran two parties at once, with one of them being part of the coalition government and one of them being in the opposition

That's a great fact! I'll pull that one out at the next party I go to.

[smjjames]

Eston Kohver, an Estonian police officer that was arrested by Russia last year, has been sentenced to 15 years imprisonment for 'espionage'.

According to Rusland, he was caught on Russian territory, carrying "illegal firearms", and "spy equipment"

According to Estonia, he was abducted from Estonian soil by Russian agents.
At the time, he was investigating a smuggling ring possibly led by Russian secret agents, when he was abducted.

The EU has protested the trial's outcome, and demanded his immediate release. EU Chief of Foreign Affairs, Federica Mogherini, said the detention of the Estonian is "illegal", and the defendant did not get a chance of a fair trial. She says Russia is breaking international law.

In Estonia itself people have reacted shocked about the trial's outcome. About one third of the population of 1.3 million people in the country speaks Russian, and the country fears Russian interference like what is happening in Ukraine.

Considering that Estonia is in NATO, it would be a really stupid move if Putin did decide to interfere. Not to mention a major test of how effective NATO actually is.

[Kot]

Tell me how backwards is communist Poland is in 1968.

[Helgoland]

Considering that Estonia is in NATO, it would be a really stupid move if Putin did decide to interfere. Not to mention a major test of how effective NATO actually is.

The second sentence sort of invalidates the first... At least in Germany the timespan between Russia invading the Baltics and major parts of our press going 'Mourir pour Tallinn?' would be approximately three hours.

[smjjames]

Considering that Estonia is in NATO, it would be a really stupid move if Putin did decide to interfere. Not to mention a major test of how effective NATO actually is.

The second sentence sort of invalidates the first... At least in Germany the timespan between Russia invading the Baltics and major parts of our press going 'Mourir pour Tallinn?' would be approximately three hours.

Point is that if NATO does a weak response or hardly responds at all, it would mean that NATO is toothless and could embolden Putin. Not to mention an ineffective NATO would mean abandoning the countries that border Russia or are former Soviet sattelites.

Also, Mourir pour Warsaw? Mourir pour Riga? Mourir pour Bucharest? Mourir pour Vilnus? Mourir pour Chișinău?

Edit: BTW, Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia are in the EU. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/52/EU28-candidate_countries_map.svg

[andrea]

it would be the end of NATO.
I can't imagine EU would fare better, if after the disaster of greece we let russia annex a member.

Basically, political disaster.

so... lets hope such a move isn't planned, i guess.

[Kot]

Considering that Estonia is in NATO, it would be a really stupid move if Putin did decide to interfere. Not to mention a major test of how effective NATO actually is.

The second sentence sort of invalidates the first... At least in Germany the timespan between Russia invading the Baltics and major parts of our press going 'Mourir pour Tallinn?' would be approximately three hours.

You would think they learned the lesson. But hey, if west wants to prove again that their tanks have ten gears backwards and one forward (in case the enemy attacks from behind), feel free to. And I don't want to sound too patriotic, but the amount of "Told you so!", "Katyń Kurwa!", "Poland Stronk Rosomak Stronk!" will be proably enough to cause a military reaction in Poland. And, unlike the west, Poland has a history of helping allies enemies of their enemies in need.

[Ukrainian Ranger]

it would be the end of NATO.
I can't imagine EU would fare better, if after the disaster of greece we let russia annex a member.

Basically, political disaster.

so... lets hope such a move isn't planned, i guess.

This may happen even if it is not planned. Putin's whim is enough. You can't predict actions of a madman.

If Putin is not mad now he may go mad later and no one will notice any difference.

[smjjames]

it would be the end of NATO.
I can't imagine EU would fare better, if after the disaster of greece we let russia annex a member.

Basically, political disaster.

so... lets hope such a move isn't planned, i guess.

Exactly my point. Hell, it wasn't all that long ago where we were mulling disbanding NATO because it's no longer needed, or so we thought, this was shortly before Russias antics.

Not to mention the political impact from the former soviet sattelites which are feeling threatened by Russia.

[smjjames]

Considering that Estonia is in NATO, it would be a really stupid move if Putin did decide to interfere. Not to mention a major test of how effective NATO actually is.

The second sentence sort of invalidates the first... At least in Germany the timespan between Russia invading the Baltics and major parts of our press going 'Mourir pour Tallinn?' would be approximately three hours.

You would think they learned the lesson. But hey, if west wants to prove again that their tanks have ten gears backwards and one forward (in case the enemy attacks from behind), feel free to.

It may just be me not getting the reference, but what do you mean by that about ten gears backwards and one forward?

Edit: Whoop, meant to copy and paste into my above post, not doublepost.

[Kot]

It may just be me not getting the reference, but what do you mean by that about ten gears backwards and one forward?

It's a common joke in Poland that arose after 1940 (I wonder why...). Basically, it's that the French are so cowardly that their tanks have ten (amount variable, usually higher than five)  gears back and one forward (as I said, in case the enemy attacks from rear), so that they're faster in running away. White flags are standard equipment too.

[smjjames]

Oh I see, it's a French surrender monkey type joke.

[Helgoland]

You would think they learned the lesson. But hey, if west wants to prove again that their tanks have ten gears backwards and one forward (in case the enemy attacks from behind), feel free to. And I don't want to sound too patriotic, but the amount of "Told you so!", "Katyń Kurwa!", "Poland Stronk Rosomak Stronk!" will be proably enough to cause a military reaction in Poland. And, unlike the west, Poland has a history of helping allies enemies of their enemies in need.

Hey, I'm on your side - my criterion for a sufficiently strong German army is that it should be able, together with the Polish army, to at least fight the Russian army to a standstill in a conventional war. I don't like having to rely on the US, and I really, really dislike the prospect of having to rely on a Le Pen-led France.

[mainiac]

That is a bit of a silly goal.  The US has developed a bunch of nifty but very expensive high tech applications like the F-22 and AWACS.  Germany has very good "workhorse" weapons like the Leopard and the Typhoon which use proven technology and push the envelope less.  While having the workhorse applications is more important then the wunderwaffen, having the wunderwaffen means your workhorse armory can be smaller and cheaper.  Once you have 50 Raptors backed by a few AWACS as the tip of your spear, 100 Typhoons are probably more effective then 500 would have been in a fair fight.  So if Germany was going for no American reliance at all it would need to either develop it's own wunderwaffen or have a much, much larger arsenal of it's Typhoon and Leopard style weapons.

There is definitely an argument to be made that the US wastes money on it's high tech gadgets and should pursue a strategy more in line with what Germany is doing.  But given that the US has pursued this strategy and will continue to do so in the future, Germany might as well make use of it.