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[Helgoland]

There is democracy, one german, one vote.

Funny, in Germany many complain how a German vote counts the least in the European machinery: One Greek wields as much power as ~8 Germans, if I remember correctly.

You should get off your anti-German horse. I can see why you are against the German position economically, but don't go talking shit about a political system you apparently only understand rudimentarily.

'The fact is that the time for those debates is over for now; we’re in a realm of power politics, not substantive economic policy debates.'

Why did Varoufakis resign really?

Well, I hate to agree with mainiac, but:

Senior troika 'crats dont like him which was an obstacle to the negotiations.

Pretty much this, but mainiac did put a, um, controversial spin on it. The current theory is that he was sacrificed by Tsipras to ensure smoother negotiations. I'll quote from the above NYT article:

The European creditors are exasperated by the Greek leaders, who cast aside many of the niceties of intra-European diplomacy in pursuing an aggressive negotiating style. (Hint: If you are negotiating with Germany seeking debt relief, bringing up Nazi war reparations, as Mr. Tsipras has, isn’t the most effective idea).

I won't go on a rant about how the reparations thing was a low move, but Varoufakis has not been any better than his Prime Minister.

No, it wouldn't, as we can already see. Health and environment counts for nothing in the EU, and "restricting free trade" is exactly the argument the EU always use against it.

They'd need to be institutions with democratic control of course. There's no question that the current EU is an ugly hybrid with severe birth defects right now.

Essentially I want what Owlie wants:

The primary obstacle to getting anyone other than Belgians and Germans truly enamoured with the European project is if we can actually introduce democracy to the EU, ending the practice of appointing unelected bureaucrats to positions of great power.

Maybe instead of discussing how we could give those bureaucrats even more power, we could discuss finding ways of making EU decision making more transparent, democratic and inclusive? This stuff where the Troika has blatantly been trying to bring about a coup in Greece to force out the democratically elected government has to end.

I'd suggest starting by giving the EU parliament some teeth: The right to introduce new laws, the power to levy taxes, and command of the Union's own military force. Then people would finally have a reason to take the parliamental elections seriously.


NINJAEDIT: A little coercion may be necessary. Your country's cultural and economic distinctiveness will be added to our own. Resistance is futile.

[GreatJustice]

So, basically 'Remove Euro!, reinstate Drachma!'?

More or less, from the perspective of the EU as a whole, anyway. To expand a bit, I'd say that the "ideal" EU would be a free trade, free travel/immigration compact, with maybe an optional currency to go with it to counterbalance the US Dollar. You can have extremely low taxes and a small welfare state like Liechtenstein, or you can have a large welfare state and high taxes like Denmark, so long as you have a more or less democratic form of government and keep your borders open. Such a system wouldn't be beneficial to every EU member, but it would promote peace and economic development in the long run, which was what the EEC and ECSC were founded for anyway.

For the Greeks, they're pretty screwed regardless of what they do, but they'd frankly not lose much from leaving the Euro anyway. No solution is going to be quick and easy, but the best solution in the long run would require the complete restructuring of their economy. In short, they'd probably need to default (which is likely to happen regardless of what they do), cut public spending drastically, cut taxes significantly too, privatize everything that realistically can be, preferably in an equitable, non-corrupt way that gives assets to the Greek citizens that paid for them as opposed to foreign multinationals (as in, through vouchers as opposed to sales). This wouldn't generate any revenue in the short run for foreign creditors, hence why a default would be necessary, and it wouldn't improve the state of Greek citizens in the short run either. In the long run, though, it would allow the Greek economy to diversify and grow, which would solve the overall issue entirely. Of course, such a solution is completely impossible since the foreign banks would lose their investments and the Greeks would lose their welfare system and a lot of their wealth, but there is no such thing as an easy fix.

[Ukrainian Ranger]

NINJAEDIT: A little coercion may be necessary. Your country's cultural and economic distinctiveness will be added to our own. Resistance is futile.

Nowadays with internet to unite people by culture, language, religion, interests and so on. Phisical borders play smaller role. Being a nationalist I prefer national states but I think that in 21th century nations can stay healthy in any kind of political system as long as there are no discrimination.

[smjjames]

NINJAEDIT: A little coercion may be necessary. Your country's cultural and economic distinctiveness will be added to our own. Resistance is futile.

And yours will be added to ours! MUAHAHAHA!

*throws burger at Helgo*

Weren't hamburgers thought up in Germany though? Whether or not the city of Hamburg has anything to do with it.

[TD1]

Germany made it, America gorged herself on it.

Edit: Actually, there appears to be some debate. America claims to have come up with the idea, made it, and then gorged herself on it.

[smjjames]

Well, there are all kinds of regional variations and recipies.

For example, legend is that the sandwich came about when the Earl of Sandwich put a slab of beef between two pieces of bread because he didn't want to get his cards greasy.

Edit: This is going offtopic right into the Food Thread, heh. Anyways, was just goofing around with my earlier post, though I'm sure you guys knew that.

[Helgoland]

NINJAEDIT: A little coercion may be necessary. Your country's cultural and economic distinctiveness will be added to our own. Resistance is futile.

And yours will be added to ours! MUAHAHAHA!

*throws burger at Helgo*

Ideally, yeah. This is a humanistic, enlightened Borg fleet after all.

NINJAEDIT: A little coercion may be necessary. Your country's cultural and economic distinctiveness will be added to our own. Resistance is futile.

Nowadays with internet to unite people by culture, language, religion, interests and so on. Phisical borders play smaller role. Being a nationalist I prefer national states but I think that in 21th century nations can stay healthy in any kind of political system as long as there are no discrimination.

50% of Bay12 nationalists agree: A nation does not necessarily need a state to go with it!
It's rare to find nationalists who are this progressive.

[CaptainMcClellan]

NINJAEDIT: A little coercion may be necessary. Your country's cultural and economic distinctiveness will be added to our own. Resistance is futile.

We know. We do it for fun.

Also, is Europe basically a prototype for a US clone right now? More I read of old Helgo, the more I think it is. I don't like that, I wanted to maybe flee there when the US got to be too much for me to put up with anymore.

[Loud Whispers]

There is democracy, one german, one vote.

Funny, in Germany many complain how a German vote counts the least in the European machinery: One Greek wields as much power as ~8 Germans, if I remember correctly.

0 x 8 = 0

[Helgoland]

Aaaaaand there we go again with people dissing the EU parliament. It's no miracle that it's held to be an undemocratic monster when its democratic elements are not acknowledged at all.

[CaptainMcClellan]

Aaaaaand there we go again with people dissing the EU parliament. It's no miracle that it's held to be an undemocratic monster when its democratic elements are not acknowledged at all.

Because a parliament automatically means democracy? I scoff in derision. Just because it's a few hundred making the arbitrary decisions that their subjugates are forced to adhere to doesn't make it any better than a single autocrat. Oligarchy, woo!

[Helgoland]

Aaaaaand there we go again with people dissing the EU parliament. It's no miracle that it's held to be an undemocratic monster when its democratic elements are not acknowledged at all.

Because a parliament automatically means democracy? I scoff in derision. Just because it's a few hundred making the arbitrary decisions that their subjugates are forced to adhere to doesn't make it any better than a single autocrat. Oligarchy, woo!

When that parliament is elected democratically - and it certainly is - it constitutes a democratic element. And it isn''t powerless either: Cameron helplessly flailing against Schulz's election ought to be enough evidence for that.
So quit yer scoffin', there's politics going on.

[CaptainMcClellan]

Aaaaaand there we go again with people dissing the EU parliament. It's no miracle that it's held to be an undemocratic monster when its democratic elements are not acknowledged at all.

Because a parliament automatically means democracy? I scoff in derision. Just because it's a few hundred making the arbitrary decisions that their subjugates are forced to adhere to doesn't make it any better than a single autocrat. Oligarchy, woo!

When that parliament is elected democratically - and it certainly is - it constitutes a democratic element. And it isn''t powerless either: Cameron helplessly flailing against Schulz's election ought to be enough evidence for that.
So quit yer scoffin', there's politics going on.

Politically doesn't that constitute a republic? Beyond that, I'm not saying they're powerless, merely that they should be. An elected legislature does stupid shit like the TPP and Obamacare. :p

[Helgoland]

So how else do you think a state should be controlled by its people? And if you're gonna say direct democracy, please include a short sketch of a workable system through which the people should express their will.

[CaptainMcClellan]

So how else do you think a state should be controlled by its people? And if you're gonna say direct democracy, please include a short sketch of a workable system through which the people should express their will.

Internet forums, obviously. :p

Thing is, no system works, but that's why you keep governments small and low to the ground.