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[Guardian G.I.]

Something tells me that Greece will magically cave in to the EU demands on the 28th or 29th June.

[smjjames]

Sell Greece to Turkey. That's a few really big problems solved in exchange for a fuck-ton more, but at least it would be funny.

Erdogan doesn't need help rebuilding the Ottoman Empire. He has already assembled his elite retinue for glorious combat. Their gorillion folded damascan steel is invulnerable.

Is it me or are some of those actually Persian, not Turkic? Then again, that helmet style has been around for a very long time.

[Evil Knievel]

What all this (Greece bailout failure) tells me is that any dream of a politically unified EU is nothing but a dream.

The vision does not show anywhere on the minds of stake holders here, and after that debacle, it seems that shunning closer integration is a good thing, especially for weaker economies.

It was a good idea at some point, but it has been brought down.

edit: remove sarcasm

[Sheb]

Well, the Euro might have been an halfassed job, but I still want my United States of Europe.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Well, the Euro might have been an halfassed job, but I still want my United States of Europe.

>tfw you will never establish a more perfect union, by and for the people

[Reelya]

Silly Greece, if they never joined the Euro they could have avoided the whole debt thing and just had hyperinflation instead.

[Sheb]

Yeah, pretty much. Historically, I can think of a single case of a country amassing that level of debt and actually paying it back: the UK after defeating Napoleon. They had debt of around 200% of GDP and was brought to 30% of GDP over a century. Of course, the massive increase in GDP due to the industrial revolution helped too.

In all other case, there was either a default, a devaluation, or just a period of high inflation.

[Helgoland]

Wait, Germany did too! Fuck what Piketty said, we (quite recently) paid the last portion of our WWI reparations. Of course there had been a significant amount of time where we didn't /repair/ at all, and IIRC there were no payments during the German/German split as well.

[Sheb]

You guys got a 50% haircut on that debt and other in 1953.

[Helgoland]

So what? There's been a haircut for Greece as well. It's convenient to just sweep that under the rug, I know...

[Sheb]

I don't get you. My point is that Greece's current debts are way too high. I pointed out that there is only one single example of a country paying such a high amount of debt. You said Germany was a second exemple. I pointed out that it did not since it got a large haircut, plus amazing conditions on repayment.

The fact that Greece got a (much smaller, without repayment conditions as good and with the need to implement policies that crushed its economy) haircut before isn't really relevant. I didn't say anything about how Greece got there, just that it couldn't go forward. 

[scriver]

Well, the Euro might have been an halfassed job, but I still want my United States of Europe.

Yeah, this whole debacle haven't at all demonstrated that there's absolutely no loyalty or siblinghood between EU states, whether governments or people.

[mainiac]

Wait, Germany did too! Fuck what Piketty said, we (quite recently) paid the last portion of our WWI reparations. Of course there had been a significant amount of time where we didn't /repair/ at all, and IIRC there were no payments during the German/German split as well.

According to Tooze's Wages of Destruction, not only were there no payments during the German/German split, there were barely any payments before that.  Germany paid for the reparations by racking up national debt.  And then when the national debt got large, Hitler came to power and renounced the debt.  The one who paid the most reparations was the US!

And Greece would be delighted if you guys would give them 80 years to grow their economy before they pay off their reparations.

So what? There's been a haircut for Greece as well. It's convenient to just sweep that under the rug, I know...

There has been a haircut for Greece that has been coupled with making it fucking impossible for Greece to do anything.  It's like you break both of someone's legs and then say "Well the lazy fuck just got those awesome disability payments so they should have no difficulty."

Silly Greece, if they never joined the Euro they could have avoided the whole debt thing and just had hyperinflation instead.

Greece is currently experiencing deflation.  Were it not for the deflation there would be no problem left at this point.  None, zero, zilch.  The size of the Greek wage adjustment means that their employment and debt problems would have been sorted about six months ago.  If Greece was no in the Euro and had received the emergency lending programs that countries usually receive after a default their economy would be healed right now.  And it wouldn't be happening through "hyper" inflation.  It would be happening through slightly elevated inflation.  That would be much, much, much better for Greece.  That would be much much worse for German banks.  The 2010 crisis was caused by the fraud of the Greek ruling coalition at the time.  The persistence of the crisis is not a problem caused by Greece, it is a problem caused by the cowardice of the German people and politicians who didn't want to stand up to their bankers.

It's ironic that the US is seen as the home of neoliberalism/crony capitalism/bailouts for bankers etc but compared to the Uncle Toms in Germany the US response was class warfare out of the pages of Capital (Picketty or Marx, take your pick).

I pointed out that it did not since it got a large haircut

More then one actually.  The Dawes Plan, the Young Plan, the Marshal Plan are just three of the larger ones.  On top of that there are several extensions through bank of international settlements adjustments that I can't even pretend to understand because you'd need to be versed in extreme minutiae of both banking and finance.

The treatment of Greece is in no way standard or normal in recent experience.  It is a throwback to the goddamn 19th century where you put the creditors first and use blackmail to force payment.  More typical of recent experience would be Mexico in the 90s.  Mexico was in a very bad debt position and that was costing US banks.  So the US responded by agreeing that Mexico should force haircuts on US banks.  Then the US government gave Mexico new money so Mexico could stabilize the position.  Then the US government promised that if Mexico made reforms they would get more money and get a free trade deal as a reward.  Mexico made it's reforms and the US passed NAFTA as promised.  And Mexico was a much more corrupt and backwards country then Greece.

[MarcAFK]

And Greece would be delighted if you guys would give them 80 years to grow their economy before they pay off their reparations.

Please, you've had 2000 years to recover from the inflation caused by the wars with rome, if anything you should be giving the rest of Europe a bailout!

[scriver]

...I don't think the US was involved with the Roman Empire. But to be fair, I might be misremembering my history here.