Okay, I think the Catalan talk can go on, just stay civil and let's maybe stop the nitpicking about the details of medieval succession out of this thread.
MetalRock, I'd also appreciate it if you could give supporting evidence to your claims (like those about international law), instead of just stating the same thing ad nauseum
As I have said before, I am no lawyer and I have no idea of international laws. The only thing I can do is to provide the experts' articles:
"In international law, the right of self-determination that became recognized in the 1960s was interpreted as the right of all colonial territories to become independent or to adopt any other status they freely chose. Ethnic or other distinct groups within colonies did not have a right to separate themselves from the "people" of the territory as a whole. Today, the right of groups to govern themselves is increasingly intertwined with human rights norms, in particular the rights of minorities and indigenous peoples. While no right to secession has yet been recognized under international law, it is possible that such a right may be accepted in the future as an exceptional measure, if a distinct group of people is systematically denied the right to participate in the government of the state or if individuals within such a group suffer systematic and gross violations of human rights that make their participation in that state impossible.
Those looking for "the" definition of self-determination will be disappointed, for many of the texts are deliberately ambiguous or even contradictory. Nonetheless, we must ultimately try to articulate the international norm of self-determination in terms that are sufficiently precise so that it continues to be relevant in the post-colonial era.
To concede to minorities, either of language or religion, or to any fractions of a population the right of withdrawing from the community to which they belong, because it is their wish or their good pleasure, would be to destroy order and stability within States and to inaugurate anarchy in international life; it would be to uphold a theory incompatible with the very idea of the State as a territorial and political unity.[5]
However, this commission did suggest that, at least under extreme oppression, a kind of self-determination by Åland citizens might be possible "as an altogether exceptional solution, a last resort when the State lacks either the will or the power to enact and apply just and effective guarantees."The Princeton Encyclopedia of Self-Determinationhttp://pesd.princeton.edu/?q=node/254Even taking in account the ambigous definition of self-determination, Catalonia does not meet its requirements in any way. Catalans are not and have never been a different ethnic group, a colony or oppressed (on the contrary, their industry and wealth was impulsed by the rest of Spain, so they are now the richest region), they have never been conquered by force and they have participated in the government of Spain as much as anyone. This is why the separatists in Catalonia claim the "right to decide" (which is invented by them and does not exist), because they do not meet the requirements for the right of self-determination.
Aw, if I can't nitpick historical details, then there's not much I can really say. Upside is that argument made me want to mod CKII to have a correct Iberia, so it wasn't all terrible.
My apologies to MetalRock, that argument stopped being about Catalan nationalists a long time ago.
No worries. I got too involved in this discussions, my fault.
In fact, the discussion in itself gave me an idea for a roleplaying campaign. Has anybody played the roleplaying game "the Call of Cthulhu" here or read any book of H. P. Lovecraft? What would happen if the Cthulhu nation existed? An ancient nation of Cthulhu sectarians that pervived from the Ice Age to our days. Now, the Cthulhans (the ancestors of the Catalans) are ready to expand themselves and conquer the world to spread their cult and prepare it for the accession of Cthulhu. They would start as a separatist movement in Catalonia, of course, but their true plan is to conquer the entire mediterranean coast (the Catalan Countries) and then the world. I know the idea needs more development, but this is promising.
By the way, the origin of the word Catalan is not Cuthulan (just in case somebody believes that). The most plausible theory is that the French called them Chatelain (people from the land of castles (chateaus)) in the 9th century. So it has the same meaning as Castilian (person from the land of castles).
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