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[MetalRocks]

Being the King of Aragon was not some self-imposed name; he inherited the damn thing. The Aragonese never ruled the County of Barcelona; the County of Barcelona  ruled the Aragonese.

They were the descendants from the first King of Aragon. They ruled over all the territories of Aragon, including the County of Barcelona (inherited by blood line).

Who gives a fuck if it wasn't specifically called Catalonia?

I don't give a shit if it existed with another name. But today's Catalonia did not exist not even as a whole. Parts of today's Catalonia belonged back then to Aragon. Other parts of today's Catalonia belonged to the francs. Other parts to the muslims. It was not called Catalonia, and it did not even exist as a political unit. In the end, those Counties belonged to the King of Aragon, that had nothing to do with Catalans, and that was the descendent from the first King of Aragon. Am I clear on this point?

You accuse me of making up history, but you can't even figure out that one can inherit a title of a kingdom without being the culture of said kingdom. Being the King of Aragon does not make you Aragonese; Alfonso II was certainly not.

So, according to your absurd reasoning, the emperor Charles V, which was first crowned as Charles I of Spain was the Spanish emperor of the whole Roman Empire. And the Germans were Spanish back then and should be Spanish today. Good to know.
First of all, you do not know what or who you are talking about. The Count of Barcelona's title (Ramon de Berenguer) was inherited by the Count of Barcelona's wife (Petronila), the doughter of the King of Aragon and hence, she was the princess of Aragon way before being Count of Barcelona. So she was the princess of Aragon (birthright) and the Count of Barcelona (she was the wife of the dead Count). So her son (Alphonse II of Aragon) inherited both titles: King of Aragon from his grandfather and the title of Count of Barcelona from his mother. This way the County of Barcelona was integrated in the Crown of Aragon. And Catalonia did not exist back then, only the Count of Barcelona and several other Countys.

[MetalRocks]

As you can see, all the Kings of Aragon were Aragonese, descendants from Aragonese Kings, and not Catalans. Their blood was Aragonese, and they called themselves Aragonese. Also, Catalonia did not exist back then.

[Descan]

And Catalonia did not even exist.

Is that like, a verbal tic for you?

Seriously, who cares when they existed. Nations don't work that way. Canada didn't exist, the only people who knew even what a Canada was was a couple of native villages, and that was just their name for village. But would you say Canada isn't a nation?

Ireland and Finland have already been brought up, and ignored.

The only thing that matters is now. Catalans think of themselves as a nation. Thus they are a nation. Whether they want to be a nation standing on it's own or a nation working within the larger Spanish federation, who knows? You don't think they even deserve the chance to answer that question, you just want to stamp them down with a big black jackboot, call them flag wavers and history-fictionists, say they don't deserve self determination for whatever fucking reason (hint: there is none, how can there be?) and pretend that that's how you preserve the Great Spanish Federation, all sunshine and lollipops and not a bunch of idiots waving around guns trying to kill each other.

[MetalRocks]

And Catalonia did not even exist.

Is that like, a verbal tic for you?

It is something necessary when talking about separatism and Catalonia. They can ascend the existence of Catalonia back to prehistoric times if you let them.

[Descan]

And Catalonia did not even exist.

Is that like, a verbal tic for you?

Seriously, who cares when they existed. Nations don't work that way. Canada didn't exist, the only people who knew even what a Canada was was a couple of native villages, and that was just their name for village. But would you say Canada isn't a nation?

Ireland and Finland have already been brought up, and ignored.

The only thing that matters is now. Catalans think of themselves as a nation. Thus they are a nation. Whether they want to be a nation standing on it's own or a nation working within the larger Spanish federation, who knows? You don't think they even deserve the chance to answer that question, you just want to stamp them down with a big black jackboot, call them flag wavers and history-fictionists, say they don't deserve self determination for whatever fucking reason (hint: there is none, how can there be?) and pretend that that's how you preserve the Great Spanish Federation, all sunshine and lollipops and not a bunch of idiots waving around guns trying to kill each other.

Quoting because edited.

[Sergarr]

Even if it didn't exist back then, that doesn't mean it can't exist now, a la Latvia. All fucking countries have started existing at some point, and not because of some "international laws" or "rights". They just did because they could.

Also I like how you try to use fucking monarchic dynasties to decide that Catalonians have no right of self-governance. That's like, fucking incredible, given that Spain didn't even fucking existed back then.

[MetalRocks]

You accuse me of making up history, but you can't even figure out that one can inherit a title of a kingdom without being the culture of said kingdom. Being the King of Aragon does not make you Aragonese; Alfonso II was certainly not.

So, according to your absurd reasoning, the emperor Charles V, which was first crowned as Charles I of Spain was the Spanish emperor of the whole Roman Empire. And the Germans were Spanish back then and should be Spanish today. Good to know.
First of all, you do not know what or who you are talking about. The Count of Barcelona's title (Ramon de Berenguer) was inherited by the Count of Barcelona's wife (Petronila), the doughter of the King of Aragon and hence, she was the princess of Aragon way before being Count of Barcelona. So she was the princess of Aragon (birthright) and the Count of Barcelona (she was the wife of the dead Count). So her son (Alphonse II of Aragon) inherited both titles: King of Aragon from his grandfather and the title of Count of Barcelona from his mother. This way the County of Barcelona was integrated in the Crown of Aragon. And Catalonia did not exist back then, only the Count of Barcelona and several other Countys.

On the first part, I have no idea what you think I said, but that wasn't it. Second part, you do not know how medieval succession laws work. Queens do not inherit the lands of their spouse unless they also happen to be the only daughter of their spouse, which has... far stranger implications. Otherwise, the title falls to the closest male heir, in this case Alfonso II. His mother was never Countess of Barcelona. Hell, he never even technically inherited the Kingdom of Aragon- she abdicated it to him, in 1164. Alfonso II's father died in 1162, at which point he inherited the County of Barcelona. He was Count for 2 years before becoming King, so how the hell could Aragon have acquired Barcelona when clearly it went the other way?

Alfonso II is of the House of fucking Barcelona! Do you not understand how medieval marriages and inheritance work? Patrilinial marriage, not matrilineal- he did not inherit his mother's name, but his father's. His Catalan father.

What you do not understand is that if a Count inherits a kingdom or an empire he is no longer a Count, he is a king or an emperor. And Alfonso was both of the house of Barcelona and Aragon. That is how the Count of Barcelona was integrated in the Crown of Aragon. Have you seen anywhere the Crown or the Kingdom of Barcelona or what? No. It was the Crown of Aragón, and its sovereign was the Aragonese King of Aragon Alfonso II that ruled over his Aragonese territories, including the Count of Barcelona.

[MetalRocks]

As for making my point clearer, the Coat of Arms for the Crown of Aragon is the same as the Coat of Arms for the House of Barcelona, with no trace of the Jiménez family remaining. The Kingdom of Aragon was not a part of the Crown of Aragon until Alfonso I made the Crown of Aragon a thing after he inherited the Kingdom of Aragon. How could the Crown of Aragon have incorporated the County of Barcelona when it didn't exist until the guy who ruled the County made it a thing after he inherited the Kingdom of Aragon? Alfonso I(I) was not Aragonese, but Catalan.

The experts still don't know today what the Coat of Arms of Aragon looked like back then and there is controversity in this matter, so your whole point (from separatist sources I am sure) drawns.

And what you don't understand is that just because it is called the Crown of Aragon does not mean that the rulers are necessarily Aragonese. Again, Norman Kings of England, et cetera.

The Kings of Aragon descended by bloodline from the first King of Aragon so they were Aragonese. There is no doubt about this.

That's really what this boils down to, isn't it? Was Alfonso I Aragonese or Catalan?

No, Catalonia did not even exist, he could not have been Catalan. The point is: was the Count of Barcelona ruling over Aragon or was the King of Aragon, descendant from the Kings of Aragon, ruling over Aragon. I will tell you the Answer, he was both the King of Aragon and the Count of Barcelona, so he integrated the County of Barcelona to his possessions as a king, the Crown of Aragon.

Where the fuck have you seen that the County of Barcelona was not part of the territory of the Crown of Aragon (whose sovereignity belonged to the King of Aragon)? Here, a wikipedia source (you like the wikipedia, don't you?)
"The Crown of Aragon eventually included the Kingdom of Aragon, the County of Barcelona, the Kingdom of Valencia, the Kingdom of Majorca, the Kingdom of Sicily, Malta, the Kingdom of Naples and Kingdom of Sardinia. For brief periods the Crown of Aragon also controlled Montpellier, Provence, Corsica, the Duchy of Neopatria in Latin Greece and the Duchy of Athens."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crown_of_Aragon

[MetalRocks]

Double post.

[Antsan]

Why the hell should ancient monarchic dynasties have any bearing on modern law in the first place? That's so absolutely backwards, I can't even.
I mean, what the hell where they even dethroned for?

[MetalRocks]

I was going off of the Wikipedia image of it. Didn't know that Wikipedia was separatist.

Wikipedia can be, and is, edited by Catalan separatists. Specially the articles concerning Catalonia and Aragon.

Crown of Aragon, not King of Aragon. Two different things.

The Crown of Aragon were the possessions of the Aragonese King of Aragon, including the Kingdom of Aragon, the Kingdom of Valencia, the Kingdom of Mallorca, several other kingdoms and counties.

Um... what? "Catalonia did not exist, therefore there is no such thing as Catalan culture" is what you just said. There isn't even any point to argue anymore if you say that Catalan culture isn't a thing; you're denying the existence of an entire people, and arguing with you at this point is moot.

No. I said that Catalonia did not even exist and that that is why the King of Aragon could not have been Catalan. He was Aragonese, the descendant of other Aragonese Kings.

A map of Spain back then. Where the fuck are the Kingdoms of Barcelona or Catalonia? Nowhere. Those were Aragonese territories.

[Loud Whispers]

Why the hell should ancient monarchic dynasties have any bearing on modern law in the first place? That's so absolutely backwards, I can't even.
I mean, what the hell where they even dethroned for?

Imperial ambition

[Sergarr]

Why does it matter which kingdoms existed and which kingdoms didn't, why do you think that this historical trivia is a valid reason to deny people the right of self-determination?

[Loud Whispers]

The only solution is that Spain declares independence from Catalonia

[RedKing]

The Stuart kings of England were Scottish rather than English. Therefore, by the same logic, all of England is actually Scottish.

Or how Catherine the Great was actually German, therefore Russia belongs to Germany. (There's a running joke about how Russia's most effective leaders have all been foreigners...)