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[MetalRocks]

Yeah. A threat of the Catalan separatists to the Italian or French sovereignity of their territories would be as absurd as a threat of the Catalan separatists to the Spanish sovereignity of its territory. I agree, they are pretty much irrational anti-democratic lunatics with no idea of history.

I was being sarcastic. I actually agree with the ideology, but only to the extent that countries influenced by Catalan culture/language e.g. the Balearics, Valencia, Andorra and so on could establish a kind of Catalan Council, like the Scandinavians (Swedish, Norwegians, Danes etc) have the Nordic Council.

Go and tell the French or the Italians that they are part of the Great Catalan Empire that existed before the wheel was invented. Don't forget to post here their point of view.

[Owlbread]

Go and tell the French or the Italians that they are part of the Great Catalan Empire that existed before the wheel was invented. Don't forget to post here their point of view.

That's not what I meant at all, but if you want to interpret it in that way that's fine.

[MetalRocks]

Go and tell the French or the Italians that they are part of the Great Catalan Empire that existed before the wheel was invented. Don't forget to post here their point of view.

That's not what I meant at all, but if you want to interpret it in that way that's fine.

That is the way the separatist Pancatalanists interpret it. My point of view has nothing to do with that.

[reality.auditor]

Sorry for late response - lately I am on DF forum rarely, sporadically and for short time.

*laughs* Look who's talking. You deny russian invasion of Ukraine. You live in reality right next to creationist's one.

I did not fucking deny that.

Well, damn. I probably misremembered you with some putinbot, as I can't see anything on forum except many discussions by you treating Russian involvement as fact. My apologies.

[MarcAFK]

You could get killed in France even after WW2, if they caught you speaking Occitan..

Wasn't that mostly because of antimosity towards southern france for collaboration since it was relatively left alone compared to the heavily occupied northern france?

[ChairmanPoo]

Its not his fault. For all his talk about "nationalist indoctrination", he's as subject to propaganda as he says Catalonians are, if not more.  Central goverments have systematically used nationalists as a boogeyman for decades, and as a consequence many people in the Peninsula have tremendously distorted views not only about those nationalists, but about what the territories in which they reside are like. Despite more often than not being a couple of hours away by car or train.

[Ukrainian Ranger]

If Spain has many guys with Metalrocks' attitude it is very, very sad and it will end badly.

Each and every of his argument I heard from Russian chauvinists in slightly different form. 

Great Catalan Empire that existed before the wheel was invented

This is very deja vu. Russians find "jokes" about ancient Ukrainians funny, too.

[MetalRocks]

So, erm, the Principality of Catalonia was actually a thing.

Yes. It was a juridical term created in the 14th century, and its jurisdiction included several Counties without political unity that belonged to the Crown of Aragon. Just as a province is also a juridical term to define a jurisdiction but has no political value. Its sovereign was the King of Aragon.

So much for no such thing as a Kingdom of Catalonia.

Never existed such a thing as the Kingdom of Calonia.

If you want to argue that that it was subsumed by the Kingdom of Aragon, then I'd just like to point out that the County of Barcelona, its precursor, is what inherited that kingdom.

Simply the King of Aragon change the name of his possessions from Kingdom of Aragon to Crown of Aragon when he inherited the County of Barcelona.
So the County of Barcelona became part of the Crown of Aragon. Later on the Crown of Aragon conquered the Kingdom of Valencia, the Kingdom of Mallorca, the kingdom of Sicily and the Kingdom of Naples. But it never had a Kingdom of Catalonia because it never existed. Just a bunch of other Counties with no political unity such as the County of Barcelona.

The Kingdom of Aragon was split between the Catalans and the Aragonese

The Crown of Aragon was the King of Aragon's possession. Catalonia did not even exist (not even the Principality of Catalonia). It was a Kingdom and belonged only to the Aragonese King.[/quote]

so I really have no idea what you are talking about when you keep referring to them as never having existed independent. Maybe not as a kingdom, sure, but still rather close enough.

No, not enough. Some of the Counties that today conform Catalonia were subject of the franc King while others were independente for a short period and others were part of the Crown of Aragon whose sovereign was the Aragonese King. Some of them changed loyalties. But they never, ever, ever, were a political unit before being part of Spain. They were never recogniced as Kingdoms by anybody. It is important to understand that Catalonia was created inside Spain by the emperor Charles V in 1521, unifying those Counties that had never been together before.

And yes, I know that the Principality of Catalonia happens to be what is used by the Catalan nationalists as the reason for why they have a right to be independent- it says it right there in the article. What bothers me is that you didn't know this, despite clearly living in Spain and having to deal with these nationalists. It would be silly to say that there was some mythical Kingdom of Catalonia, yes, but the Kingdom of Aragon was a kingdom ruled by the Catalonians and the Aragonese, not the Castillians.

The Crown of Aragon was never, ever, ever, etc. ever, ruled by the Catalonians. I repeat, despite of what you read in the wikipedia, that can and will be edited by the Catalan separatists, there was a Crown of Aragon ruled by Aragonese people. And everybody in the Crown of Aragon were Aragonese subjects. Catalonia did not even exist. Barcelona was a County. Gerona was another County, etc. Catalonia was created from unifying 7 or 8 Counties in 1521.

Its not his fault. For all his talk about "nationalist indoctrination", he's as subject to propaganda as he says Catalonians are, if not more.  Central goverments have systematically used nationalists as a boogeyman for decades, and as a consequence many people in the Peninsula have tremendously distorted views not only about those nationalists, but about what the territories in which they reside are like. Despite more often than not being a couple of hours away by car or train.

Sure, and the foreign hispanist historians are also indoctrinated like me:
Henry Kamen says that Catalonia falsifies its history
John H. Elliot about a symposium of history created by the Catalan government called "Spain against Catalonia": "It is not even worth talking. With that title (Spain against Catalonia) I know I'm not interested. There is little of history in it and has no rigor. It is nonsense "

I would like to see your face if your countries (or future nations if you are separatists) were cut to pieces just because. Or just a region of them were separated without reason. Just because the history-fiction of some lunatics that no historian outside that region believes.

Have a good day everybody. This time I leave this conversation, hopefully forever.

[smjjames]

Also, Spain was once ruled by the Habsburgs (or at least a branch of their family), so the Catalonians were subjects of Austria at one point.

Just tossing a random and possibly partially inaccurate bit of history in the discussion as I'm barely even paying attention to the whole Catalonian discussion.

[Owlbread]

I think the whole "Catalonia has never been a single unified sovereign state, therefore it is not a nation" argument is simply a non starter. Ireland has never been a single sovereign unified state, yet a state was created (albeit missing a chunk) after the war of independence in the early 19th C. I believe Finland was the same.

[Sergarr]

I would like to see your face if your countries (or future nations if you are separatists) were cut to pieces just because. Or just a region of them were separated without reason. Just because the history-fiction of some lunatics that no historian outside that region believes.

[Soviet Union intensifies]

[MarcAFK]

[Soviet Union intensifies]

Politics and history aside, I'm loving the Russian choir music that's suddenly appeared in the thread.

[martinuzz]

After having been extinct since a succesful vaccination capaign following the end of WWII, diphteria has arrived back into Europe.

A critically ill 6 year old kid in Barcelona has been admitted to intensive care with diphteria.
The boy's parents had deliberatly not allowed their kid to be vaccinated.
It caused a medical crisis there for a while, since apparently, there were no medicine against diphteria at all to be found in Spain, or Europe.
After a frantic search, and an emergency aid request to the WHO, doctors from the Barcelona hospital managed to acquire anti-diptheria medication from Moscow.

About 150 people, kids and adults, from the patient's environment have been placed under precautionairy quarantaine. The quarantained group had to be that large, because the patient had just been on a school camping trip before the illness was discovered.
Medical scientists are still puzzled as to what could have been the source of the infection, since, as said before, diphteria was assumed to be completely banished from Europe.

The issue has raised a large debate in the Spanish social media, about individual freedom versus public health. A lot of public outrage focusses on the parents, claiming that "vaccination is a child's right, not a parent's right", and some people even call for their arrest.
Others pointed out the importance of informing the public well about vaccination, and pointed at the many fraudulent anti-vaccination sites that can be found on the internet, spreading false information and outright lies.
Pediatricians and doctors also warn that the group parents that refuse to have their kids vaccinated is "a small minority, but unfortunatly not insignificant enough to not pose a threat to public health, who tear holes in the safety net that protects us from terrible and contagious diseases"

[Sergarr]

Anti-vaccination movement kills people and revives deadly diseases, news at 11.

[towerdude]

You could get killed in France even after WW2, if they caught you speaking Occitan..

Wasn't that mostly because of antimosity towards southern france for collaboration since it was relatively left alone compared to the heavily occupied northern france?

Not really because the government and most collaborators were mainly French.

Occitan was banned by then for at least 200-400 years. D'Gaulle just used Vichy France as an excuse to wipe Occitan culture off the map.

And he was very succesful, before WW2 almost 90% of Occitania had extensive knowledge of the language (enough to communicate and sustain literature).

Then: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vergonha

It was systematically eradicated. And Americans think the French are liberal.