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[Owlbread]

So, the leader of the anti-francoist movement, the one that fought Franco in the exile, is francoist according to you because he detest the separatism in Catalonia.

He was evidently a Spanish nationalist first and an anti-Francoist second. I have no time for his government in exile anyway - I think they were divisive within the movement and their inflexibility was part of their downfall.

So you are saying that anybody that is against the separatism in Catalonia is semi-francoist or fracoist to you. Very rational and logic.

No, I think people who make arguments along the lines of "Catalonia is not a country" and take a generally anti-democratic approach to the national question remind me of authoritarian Spanish nationalists, that's where I was coming from when I said semi-Francoist. It's inflammatory and a Spanish version of Godwin's Law but I stand by it. A far better approach for a Spanish unionist IMO should be to recognise Catalonia as a country and a nation that happens to be a part of Spain. If you try to actively antagonise those who believe in Catalan independence and the Catalan nation as a whole by refusing to allow them to determine their own futures you will only bring Catalan independence closer to reality.

It should be you who should provide the law where it says that Catalonia has a self-determination right (because it is said nowhere), not me.

But I recognise there is no law. Please read what I'm saying. I think Catalonia has a right to self determination morally, that has nothing to do with laws. If what you're saying is based on assumptions rather than actual legislation how can we take your arguments on legality seriously?

[redwallzyl]

I get the impression that owlbread wot be satisfied until Europe looks like ck2 shattered balance.

[Graknorke]

Nationalism is kind of Owlbread's thing. Not just his own nationalism either, he's nationalistic on everyone's behalf.

[MetalRocks]

So, the leader of the anti-francoist movement, the one that fought Franco in the exile, is francoist according to you because he detest the separatism in Catalonia.

He was evidently a Spanish nationalist first and an anti-Francoist second. I have no time for his government in exile anyway - I think they were divisive within the movement and their inflexibility was part of their downfall.

He was a Spanish patriot (that is not the same than nationalist, though I doubt you know the difference from what you are saying) from the PSOE (Spanish Socialist Workers' Party) of the left-wing. Anti-fascist and leader of the anti-francoists.

So you are saying that anybody that is against the separatism in Catalonia is semi-francoist or fracoist to you. Very rational and logic.

No, I think people who make arguments along the lines of "Catalonia is not a country"

Catalonia is neither a state or nation, and it has never been. The only nation in a political and juridical way (the one we are interested in) is Spain.

and take a generally anti-democratic approach to the national question remind me of authoritarian Spanish nationalists, that's where I was coming from when I said semi-Francoist. It's inflammatory and a Spanish version of Godwin's Law but I stand by it. A far better approach for a Spanish unionist IMO should be to recognise Catalonia as a country and a nation that happens to be a part of Spain.

Why should we recognize the history-fiction that no historian outside Catalonia believes (and many inside don't do eather)?

If you try to actively antagonise those who believe in Catalan independence and the Catalan nation as a whole by refusing to allow them to determine their own futures you will only bring Catalan independence closer to reality.

What has brought it closer to reallity has been the government in Catalonia of the nationalist Jordi Pujol (a thief, by the way, as he has admited it) that has governed Catalonia during most of the democracy.

But I recognise there is no law. Please read what I'm saying. I think Catalonia has a right to self determination morally, that has nothing to do with laws. If what you're saying is based on assumptions rather than actual legislation how can we take your arguments on legality seriously?

Morally? Are you serious, is that all that you have? the self-determination right depends on your moral instead of in the international laws? I see how democratic and rational you are.

[Owlbread]

Spoiler: In reply to MetalRocks (click to show/hide)

He was a Spanish patriot (that is not the same than nationalist, though I doubt you know the difference from what you are saying) from the PSOE (Spanish Socialist Workers' Party) of the left-wing. Anti-fascist and leader of the anti-francoists.

The terms "patriot" and "nationalist" are so vague and ambiguous trying to argue on the basis of some kind of imagined difference can only lead to endless circular arguments. We're not going to go anywhere with that.

Catalonia is neither a state or nation, and it has never been. The only nation in a political and juridical way (the one we are interested in) is Spain.

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on that one.

Why should we recognize the history-fiction that no historian outside Catalonia believes (and many inside don't do eather)?

Recognising that Catalonia is a constituent country of Spain is a good starting point for those who want to build a stable state and a lasting union, rather than using authoritarian, anti-democratic arguments. The result in the 2014 Scottish independence referendum would have been quite different if the Unionist case was based around the idea that Scotland was not a nation in any shape or form and was just a part of northern England, therefore it couldn't be independent.

What has brought it closer to reallity has been the government in Catalonia of the nationalist Jordi Pujol (a thief, by the way, as he has admited it) that has governed Catalonia during most of the democracy.

If you say so, I see a Spanish government that's completely inflexible in its nationalism and relentlessly antagonises the pro-independence cause, lending them public sympathy at a time where independence doesn't seem that bad an idea.

Morally? Are you serious, is that all that you have? the self-determination right depends on your moral instead of in the international laws? I see how democratic and rational you are.

It's a logical fallacy to conflate legality with morality. What I think is right and should be law isn't necessarily law at the present moment. When civil rights activists in the 1960s were campaigning for African Americans to have equal rights with white people, and in the UK for Irish Catholics to have equal rights as Protestants, the fact that what they wanted wasn't in law yet didn't make it any less just.

On another subject, I heard Boris Johnson was making Eurosceptic noises recently, saying something along the lines of "we'd better get a really good deal out of Europe, otherwise I'm campaigning for Brexit". Is that true? Considering we're not going to get anything approaching a "really good deal" out of the negotiations doesn't that mean Boris could be the face of the pro-Brexit campaign?

[towerdude]

Nothing to see here. LOL



----

P.S.: You don't have to actively persecute somebody to reduce their culture and assimilate them, all you need is a little economic pressure, so the "minority" realize they have to not just learn but internalize the "official" language in order to more easily get jobs, etc. Then they start schooling their children in non-minority universities, and poof you have a culture and language that is hard to maintain. They don't know about the policies of the state to subtlety distribute national wealth to "official" institutions and marginalize minority media (including books, magazines and newspapers).

Keep in mind that we reached this "liberal utopia" just a few years ago, a lot of so called democratic states used heavy-handed tactics against their minorities (like beating children in school if they spoke their mother-tongue). F*** YEAH patois http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patois



Then comes the "practical" apologist, who says: "Hey it's their freedom of choice to abandon their language."

Then we start to see opinions like this: http://actualfluency.com/let-languages-die-enjoy-still-alive/

You know world languages are coming from rich countries, ergo if I speak world languages I am less dirt poor. Get lost pesky dieing languages, here comes the glorious age of "no diversity, everyone is rich". LOLOLOL

-----

At least some people still try to make some sense:

http://neuroanthropology.net/2010/07/25/language-extinction-aint-no-big-thing/

He makes some strong arguments that in most regions decreasing diversity in culture and language also accompanied later lower diversity in flora and fauna.

Scientists just start to discover that a lot of native languages have a diverse vocabulory and knowledge about local lifeforms (useful plants for instance) what the main languages of the world lack.

This knowledge is critical in many fields, for example in the pharmaceutical industry, new discoveries, new medicines. We newer know what we lose.

If we let these cultures and languages flourish, cooperate and study them, we could gain an enermous advantage, and don't have to rediscover stuff what the locals knew for hundreds of years.

[Owlbread]

This knowledge is critical in many fields, for example in the pharmaceutical industry, new discoveries, new medicines. We newer know what we lose.

If we let these cultures and languages flourish, cooperate and study them, we could gain an enermous advantage, and don't have to rediscover stuff what the locals knew for hundreds of years.

This isn't really a practically important thing, but in English the word for this bird native to Scotland is a "goldfinch":

Spoiler: I see them in my garden on a regular basis (click to show/hide)

The name in Gaelic (lasair coille I think) literally translates as "forest flame", or "flame of the forest". I know that isn't really worth anything to the world of science but sentimentally it's worth something at least and it's an example of a perspective that could be lost as languages die.

[Graknorke]

Well from the perspective of someone who only speaks the nutrient slurry of languages, languages dying out isn't that big a deal. So you are probably right.

[MetalRocks]

EDIT: nothing.

[Frumple]

Morally? Are you serious, is that all that you have? the self-determination right depends on your moral instead of in the international laws? I see how democratic and rational you are.

You keep spouting about international law and not providing any sexy legal code. C'mon, critter mah critter, give us some o' dat legal text. Owlbread even explicitly asked once already -- it'd be pretty useful info for someone that's in a state that's working towards independence.

Or someone else, even. Last I checked (which is, being fair, quite a long time ago) international law is quite heavy on the recognition of existing sovereignty, but it's fairly mum on secession (so long as it's not violent, anyway). It'd be nice to know what's on the metaphorical (and literal) books.

[towerdude]

Catalan is not opressed, for that is sure. Leonese? What is Leonese?

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

[LordSlowpoke]

literally shitposting

spoiler that at least

[towerdude]

Sorry. I had to post this after I read some spanish nationalists' posts.

I am getting the spolier now.

[LordSlowpoke]

i think you'll find that the #1 way of dealing with actual nationalists is to let others poke them until the nationalists do stupid things and get themselves banned

it's entertaining without you having to get involved, look up our experience with israelis if you so wish - it's where i draw the above from

[Loud Whispers]

Good gods you're oppressing me with that shitty macro