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[LordSlowpoke]

* LordSlowpoke pokes loud whispers

look at the above post

[Loud Whispers]

Inb4 Londonistan rules the waves

Admiral Boris shall annex the Isles, then the world - for Queen and Rhubarb

[Owlbread]

As you wish. Catalonia has never been independent or a kingdom, and so has no right of self-determination. I made my point and I probably won't answer again to this thread so you will not have to worry about me anymore.

I'm trying to avoid challenging any of the weird semi-francoist Spanish unionist stuff you've said because other people have dealt with it very well (it's complete bollocks), all I'll ask is do you have any evidence of a kind of concrete definition of "nation" in international law? Indeed, any kind of example of a right to self determination enshrined in international law? I remember looking for that during our own independence referendum and as far as I could tell it was all very vague, nothing concrete at all. It was quite problematic for some of our arguments.

Hey Finland, turns out you can't actually be a nation or a state because you were never a unified kingdom. Please get back in line?

The Republic of Ireland needs to consider its position too in that case.

Inb4 Londonistan rules the waves

Admiral Boris shall annex the Isles, then the world - for Queen and Rhubarb

Ken Livingstone called for a Republic of London once, half-jokingly. One day I hope to see a kind of autonomous Republic of Greater London at some point... a Republic of Greater Manchester would be good too.

Catalonia becoming independent though is quite similar to Quebec becoming independent, or South Brazil from the rest of Brazil.

[Descan]

Of course, I think Quebec is the size of Spain, if not in population then in land area. (Actually three times as big is Quebec)

So...

... Yeah. Here in the Colonies, we do things big.

[LordSlowpoke]

it's been 200 years and 95% of your land is still basically a forest

get it together

or just start shipping it over to the netherlands they'd make good use of it

[martinuzz]

A Grexit is becoming more and more likely now, as Greekish parliament, both supporters as well as opposition of PM Tsipras' party, Syriza, have decided not to accept the "final offer" made by the EU in council meetings of the past days.

While the PM praised "the constructive attitude of the EU creditors", the parliament called the ultimatum "a disgrace". Prominent members of parliament from the PM's own party even called out for new elections.
The chairman of parliament, Alexis Mitropoulos, said "where everyone was hoping that an agreement could be reached, Juncker (the chairman of the EU) has come forth with a plan that is vulgair, murderous and harsh".

Meanwhile, Greece is likely to go bankrupt (as in, no longer able to pay the interest for it's international debts) this month, unless an agreement with the EU is reached, which will net them another 9 billion euros in "emergency loans".

[Loud Whispers]

Ken Livingstone called for a Republic of London once, half-jokingly. One day I hope to see a kind of autonomous Republic of Greater London at some point... a Republic of Greater Manchester would be good too.

That's always an option when reform of the City of London is on the table. Singapore has also proven that city states can be far more powerful than they should have any right of seeming.

[Descan]

it's been 200 years and 95% of your land is still basically a forest

get it together

or just start shipping it over to the netherlands they'd make good use of it

A very COLD forest.

Give global warming a couple decades and we'll be as urbanized as Germany.

[mainiac]

A Grexit is becoming more and more likely now, as Greekish parliament, both supporters as well as opposition of PM Tsipras' party, Syriza, have decided not to accept the "final offer" made by the EU in council meetings of the past days.

It's perfectly fitting.  Europe endured years of currency imbalance which was highly damaging to both sides (although moreso to the Greeks).  Then when they are finally through with the pain and on the verge of the upside they want to dodge that bullet by starting a whole new crisis.  Grexit would have had some benefits 5 years ago; at this point all the bad stuff the Grexit would avoid has already happened so it can't be avoided.  Just think of the most self defeating course and there you will find Europe.

[MetalRocks]

As you wish. Catalonia has never been independent or a kingdom, and so has no right of self-determination. I made my point and I probably won't answer again to this thread so you will not have to worry about me anymore.

I'm trying to avoid challenging any of the weird semi-francoist Spanish unionist stuff you've said because other people have dealt with it very well (it's complete bollocks)

This is the reason because I am answering you, though I was not going to do so because I am tired of your history-fiction. Everytime I say I am against the separatists in Catalonia some of them call me francoist, like if I were talking to programmed robots. Am I semi-francoist because of saying that "there is only one nation: Spain"? Well, I was not the first one to say it. The President of the Second Spanish Republic of the Spanish left-wing that fought against Franco in the exile said it. And he said he would let Franco win before letting any separatism in Spain. Was he semi-francoist also?

all I'll ask is do you have any evidence of a kind of concrete definition of "nation" in international law? Indeed, any kind of example of a right to self determination enshrined in international law? I remember looking for that during our own independence referendum and as far as I could tell it was all very vague, nothing concrete at all. It was quite problematic for some of our arguments.

I will quote the entire phrase of the Spanish President of the Second Republic that fought Franco, so you do not think that I am francoist, and so that you may believe the most anti-francoist person:
"I'm not making war against Franco to let a provincial separatism appear in Barcelona (...) There is only one nation: Spain! (...) Before consenting nationalist campaigns that leads to dismemberments that in no way I admit, I would give way to Franco with no other condition than that of getting rid of the Germans and the Italians"
Juan Negrin Spanish President of the Second Republic of the left. collected by Julian Zugazogoitia in his memoirs.

The contemporary international law is based on the principle of the obligation to respect the territorial integrity of the existing sovereign states. The precise circumstances in which international law recognizes the right to self-determination do not apply to Spain, as they are not applicable to many other democratic states that have separatist movements.

As for the national law anybody can consult the national constitutions of any other nation and see how they do not recognize the right to self-determination and unilateral secession.

Given these requirements of law that preserve the territorial integrity, the radical nationalism argues as follows: if international law recognizes the principle of self-determination by persons suffering from colonial situation, villages annexed by conquest or occupation and oppressed peoples by massive and flagrant violation of their rights, it is necessary to convert Spain in just that: a colonial and totalitarian country, that only by force kept some of his fellow citizens as prisoners. Only if the international society is persuaded that is the true reality of Spain, self-determination according to law may (in the opinion of the separatists) be achieved. A project that, in case of succeding, involve the historical, political, economic and cultural impoverishment of both the amputated Spain and the separated part. But the fact is that self-determination of peoples is a principle applied to a very different context to the case of Catalonia.

[Loud Whispers]

For a populist, left-wing party like Syriza, it would be unthinkable to pay its debts to creditors ahead of funding pensions for 2.6 million Greeks and some 600,000 civil servant salaries. It has already moved to re-employ 4,000 civil servants whom the previous government got rid of.

RIP Greece
I liked your olives, if only you didn't have to die martyred on the altar of Juncker's throbbing docking

Greece's future in the euro looked so shaky that UK bookmaker William Hill some time ago stopped taking bets on the chances of a Grexit.

Sail well on Styx fallen fellows

[Owlbread]

This is the reason because I am answering you, though I was not going to do so because I am tired of your history-fiction. Everytime I say I am against the separatists in Catalonia some of them call me francoist, like if I were talking to programmed robots. Am I semi-francoist because of saying that "there is only one nation: Spain"? Well, I was not the first one to say it. The President of the Second Spanish Republic of the Spanish left-wing that fought against Franco in the exile said it. And he said he would let Franco win before letting any separatism in Spain. Was he semi-francoist also?

If he would rather let Franco win than allow Catalonia to be an independent country then yeah, he was in my eyes. Just like Gordon Brown and other Labour party politicians preferring Scotland to be governed by the Tories than independent may lead us to question their priorities.

The contemporary international law is based on the principle of the obligation to respect the territorial integrity of the existing sovereign states. The precise circumstances in which international law recognizes the right to self-determination do not apply to Spain, as they are not applicable to many other democratic states that have separatist movements.

As for the national law anybody can consult the national constitutions of any other nation and see how they do not recognize the right to self-determination and unilateral secession.

See, the following paragraph on "radical nationalism" aside, this makes a lot of sense. When I looked into "self determination" stuff a year or two ago I came across this kind of thing; it was more about respecting existing borders than giving people a right to govern themselves/determine their own destinies. However, none of this justifies your bizarre arguments e.g. "Catalonia wasn't an independent unified state in the past, therefore self determination law does not apply". Again, though, if you could actually provide examples of the legislation in which these principles are enshrined that would clear things up a great deal.

[MetalRocks]

This is the reason because I am answering you, though I was not going to do so because I am tired of your history-fiction. Everytime I say I am against the separatists in Catalonia some of them call me francoist, like if I were talking to programmed robots. Am I semi-francoist because of saying that "there is only one nation: Spain"? Well, I was not the first one to say it. The President of the Second Spanish Republic of the Spanish left-wing that fought against Franco in the exile said it. And he said he would let Franco win before letting any separatism in Spain. Was he semi-francoist also?

If he would rather let Franco win than allow Catalonia to be an independent country then yeah, he was in my eyes. Just like Gordon Brown and other Labour party politicians preferring Scotland to be governed by the Tories than independent may lead us to question their priorities.

So, the leader of the anti-francoist movement, the one that fought Franco in the exile, is francoist according to you because he detest the separatism in Catalonia. So you are saying that anybody that is against the separatism in Catalonia is semi-francoist or fracoist to you. Very rational and logic. I will tell you what the famous Spanish writer Miguel de Unamuno (from the Vasque Country) said about the nationalisms in Spain:
"Nationalism is the craziness of exalted people spoiled by a bad indigestion of history."

See, the following paragraph on "radical nationalism" aside, this makes a lot of sense. When I looked into "self determination" stuff a year or two ago I came across this kind of thing; it was more about respecting existing borders than giving people a right to govern themselves/determine their own destinies. However, none of this justifies your bizarre arguments e.g. "Catalonia wasn't an independent unified state in the past, therefore self determination law does not apply". Again, though, if you could actually provide examples of the legislation in which these principles are enshrined that would clear things up a great deal.

It should be you who should provide the law where it says that Catalonia has a self-determination right (because it is said nowhere), not me. I am no lawyer, but to understand it you must understand the paragraph you did not quote. The self-determination right is about freeing oppressed people, not about giving anybody the right to break their countries just because. I will quote myself again:
"Given these requirements of law that preserve the territorial integrity, the radical nationalism argues as follows: if international law recognizes the principle of self-determination by persons suffering from colonial situation, villages annexed by conquest or occupation and oppressed peoples by massive and flagrant violation of their rights, it is necessary to convert Spain in just that: a colonial and totalitarian country, that only by force kept some of his fellow citizens as prisoners. Only if the international society is persuaded that this is the true reality of Spain, self-determination according to law may (in the opinion of the separatists) be achieved. A project that, in case of succeding, involve the historical, political, economic and cultural impoverishment of both the amputated Spain and the separated part. But the fact is that self-determination of peoples is a principle applied to a very different context to the case of Catalonia."

[SirQuiamus]

Given these requirements of law that preserve the territorial integrity, the radical nationalism argues as follows: if international law recognizes the principle of self-determination by persons suffering from colonial situation, villages annexed by conquest or occupation and oppressed peoples by massive and flagrant violation of their rights, it is necessary to convert Spain in just that: a colonial and totalitarian country, that only by force kept some of his fellow citizens as prisoners. Only if the international society is persuaded that is the true reality of Spain, self-determination according to law may (in the opinion of the separatists) be achieved.

Are you sure this isn't a textbook strawman?

I find it hard to imagine anyone claiming with a straight face that Catalans are currently being "colonized" and "imprisoned" by Spain.

[MetalRocks]

Given these requirements of law that preserve the territorial integrity, the radical nationalism argues as follows: if international law recognizes the principle of self-determination by persons suffering from colonial situation, villages annexed by conquest or occupation and oppressed peoples by massive and flagrant violation of their rights, it is necessary to convert Spain in just that: a colonial and totalitarian country, that only by force kept some of his fellow citizens as prisoners. Only if the international society is persuaded that is the true reality of Spain, self-determination according to law may (in the opinion of the separatists) be achieved.

Are you sure this isn't a textbook strawman?

I find it hard to imagine anyone claiming with a straight face that Catalans are currently being "colonized" and "imprisoned" by Spain.

The separatists in Catalonia do, as they live in a historical-fiction reallity.