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Author Topic: Sheb's European Megathread: Remove Feta!  (Read 1747963 times)

Sergarr

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #17205 on: June 04, 2015, 01:04:04 am »

Not really. A dictator could be an actual administrator. :V
And a dictator cannot actually function without a government to carry out his orders.

I meant a non-dictator government.
And how is it any different, apart from not serving a dictator?
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Ukrainian Ranger

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #17206 on: June 04, 2015, 02:12:43 am »

The fact is, the war didn't actually solve it, but supporting one warlord to kill all of the others did. As bad as Kadyrov is, he's preferable to what was before him. He of course would need to get replaced in the future, with an actual administrator and not warlord-pretending-to-be-an-administrator, but without instating him, that would not be possible.

He'd have to be replaced with an actual government, not just 'an actual adminstrator'.

Oh, he will be replaced after he will become the next president of Russian Federation
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War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend.

MetalRocks

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #17207 on: June 04, 2015, 02:39:17 am »

I haven't read the whole thing, but I have read some posts about Catalonia and I want to point out some major differences between Catalonia and Scottland:

First of all, Catalonia has never been independent or a country or a nation or a kingdom (like Scottland) or a colony in their entire history, even if you hear the Catalan separatists claim so. It was a region (province) created inside the Kingdom of Spain by the emperor Charles V (Charles I of Spain) in 1521. So according to international laws they have absolutledly no self-determination right. And they never fought for independence or anything like that.

Catalonia is currently one of the most industrialized regions of Spain basically because of two things: The rest of Spain invested on Catalonia and the rest of Spain bought the Catalan products, that were more expensive than the British ones, to develop that region's industry.

120 years ago the Catalan nationalists were only a few crazy bourgeoises, but since the nationalists govern the region of Catalonia (they have been there for 35 years now) controlling the schools' education and the media, I can assure that not only many young Catalans have no idea about history, but also they believe they have been fighting for independence against the oppression of Spain allways. They believe they were a kingdom conquered and oppressed by Spain, and hence they have become separatists. Even though they admit they are one of the richest and more industrialized regions of Spain. But the Catalan separatists say that the rest of Spain robs them, and blames them for everything (hate).

For example, according to Henry Kamen, a British hispanist historian that lives in Catalonia, "there is no stealing. Catalonia is the richest region, and that is also the "fault" of Spain"
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Sergarr

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #17208 on: June 04, 2015, 02:44:49 am »

The fact is, the war didn't actually solve it, but supporting one warlord to kill all of the others did. As bad as Kadyrov is, he's preferable to what was before him. He of course would need to get replaced in the future, with an actual administrator and not warlord-pretending-to-be-an-administrator, but without instating him, that would not be possible.

He'd have to be replaced with an actual government, not just 'an actual adminstrator'.

Oh, he will be replaced after he will become the next president of Russian Federation
I can't tell if you're serious or just joking.
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Ukrainian Ranger

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #17209 on: June 04, 2015, 03:18:05 am »

I am serious. Caucasian thug ruled in Russia once, I can't  see any reason why this can't happen again.
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War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend.

Antsan

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #17210 on: June 04, 2015, 03:53:25 am »

This sounds remarkably like Communist economics. The Trabi was an outdated piece of shit, but it was YOUR piece of crap.
I'll have you know that it's still very sought after because it's a piece of crap you can actually repair yourself. These things already last decades, as opposed to the few years you get with modern cars.
They're awful polluters, though, if the engine isn't replaced (which is totally possible).

Of course providing stuff the customer can actually work with instead of just using it isn't good for business. And that's why capitalism makes sure customers get the best experience evar
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Sheb

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #17211 on: June 04, 2015, 06:30:31 am »



Why the sudden Catalonia rant? Anyway, there are a few mistakes in there. Catalonia clearly existed before merging with Castille in the Iberian wedding. Sure, it was called Kingdom of Aragon, but it existed. Catalonia is also clearly a nation if not a country at the moment. However, even if they had never be, it would have exactly zera bearing regarding their right to self-determination as regarded by international law.

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Europe consists only of small countries, some of which know it and some of which don’t yet.

scriver

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #17212 on: June 04, 2015, 07:01:32 am »

I haven't read the whole thing, but I have read some posts about Catalonia and I want to point out some major differences between Catalonia and Scottland:

First of all, Catalonia has never been independent or a country or a nation or a kingdom (like Scottland) or a colony in their entire history, even if you hear the Catalan separatists claim so. It was a region (province) created inside the Kingdom of Spain by the emperor Charles V (Charles I of Spain) in 1521. So according to international laws they have absolutledly no self-determination right. And they never fought for independence or anything like that.

Catalonia is currently one of the most industrialized regions of Spain basically because of two things: The rest of Spain invested on Catalonia and the rest of Spain bought the Catalan products, that were more expensive than the British ones, to develop that region's industry.

120 years ago the Catalan nationalists were only a few crazy bourgeoises, but since the nationalists govern the region of Catalonia (they have been there for 35 years now) controlling the schools' education and the media, I can assure that not only many young Catalans have no idea about history, but also they believe they have been fighting for independence against the oppression of Spain allways. They believe they were a kingdom conquered and oppressed by Spain, and hence they have become separatists. Even though they admit they are one of the richest and more industrialized regions of Spain. But the Catalan separatists say that the rest of Spain robs them, and blames them for everything (hate).

For example, according to Henry Kamen, a British hispanist historian that lives in Catalonia, "there is no stealing. Catalonia is the richest region, and that is also the "fault" of Spain"

I believe it is you who are mistaken. Even if you disregard thw
at the claims of independence comes from the Catalan nation and not a political entity, there's the Principality of Catalonia, established in the 11th Century, which would later expand into a personal union with the Kingdom of Aragon (led by the Catalan house of Barcelona, by the way). A personal union means that two separate realms are ruled by the same king (like Sweden and Norway in the Swedo-Norwegian Union of 1810, or like Scotland and England in the original British union). Both realms remain independent and with their own laws and sovereignity. It remained a separate ordinance from both the Kingdom of Aragon and Spain up until 1716, when all of the Crown of Aragon's lands were stripped of distinction from the Kingdom of Spain.

As for Catalonians never fighting for independence, that is wrong too. A quick search reveals at least two instances of outright revolt in 1640and 1687, as well as several formations of an independent or more sovereign Republic of Catalonia.

And independent state of Catalonia has basis both in the existsence and history of the Catalonian nation as well the political and legal history of the region.
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SirQuiamus

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #17213 on: June 04, 2015, 07:07:51 am »

This sounds remarkably like Communist economics. The Trabi was an outdated piece of shit, but it was YOUR piece of crap.
I'll have you know that it's still very sought after because it's a piece of crap you can actually repair yourself. These things already last decades, as opposed to the few years you get with modern cars.
They're awful polluters, though, if the engine isn't replaced (which is totally possible).

Of course providing stuff the customer can actually work with instead of just using it isn't good for business. And that's why capitalism makes sure customers get the best experience evar
All cars used to be self-serviceable in days of yore, and most of them were a bit less – with all due respect – primitive than Le Trabbi.

But that's beside the point: In those days you were not only able to maintain your own car – you absolutely had to do it if you wanted to keep it in working condition without taking it to the repair shop once a week.

Cars, and Eastern-bloc cars in particular, used to be exactly as reliable as their owners: Neglect maintenance for a moment, and you'd suddenly have an unsalvageable jalopy in your garage.         
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Helgoland

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #17214 on: June 04, 2015, 08:37:43 am »

This sounds remarkably like Communist economics. The Trabi was an outdated piece of shit, but it was YOUR piece of crap.
I'll have you know that it's still very sought after because it's a piece of crap you can actually repair yourself. These things already last decades, as opposed to the few years you get with modern cars.
Huh, I thought the main reason was Ostalgia. At least here in the West they're not at all 'very sought after'.
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Antsan

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #17215 on: June 04, 2015, 09:08:30 am »

Yeah, it's probably a mixture.
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smjjames

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #17216 on: June 04, 2015, 09:20:00 am »

I am serious. Caucasian thug ruled in Russia once, I can't  see any reason why this can't happen again.

Which one was that? Ivan the Terrible? Okay, while I'm pretty sure that Ivan wasn't Caucasian (as in the ethnicity), I have no idea who you're talking about.
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scrdest

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #17217 on: June 04, 2015, 09:28:47 am »

I am serious. Caucasian thug ruled in Russia once, I can't  see any reason why this can't happen again.

Which one was that? Ivan the Terrible? Okay, while I'm pretty sure that Ivan wasn't Caucasian (as in the ethnicity), I have no idea who you're talking about.
Probably Stalin, he was Georgian.
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MetalRocks

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #17218 on: June 04, 2015, 10:32:19 am »

Why the sudden Catalonia rant?
Just to clarify things.

Anyway, there are a few mistakes in there. Catalonia clearly existed before merging with Castille in the Iberian wedding. Sure, it was called Kingdom of Aragon, but it existed. Catalonia is also clearly a nation if not a country at the moment. However, even if they had never be, it would have exactly zera bearing regarding their right to self-determination as regarded by international law.
The Kingdom of Aragon (or Crown of Aragon, depending on the date) is a different thing from Catalonia. Today's Catalonia were a only a bunch of Counties without political unity back then that belonged to the Crown of Aragon, so Catalonia did not even exist. And nobody in Aragon wants to be separated from Spain.
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MetalRocks

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #17219 on: June 04, 2015, 10:34:11 am »

at the claims of independence comes from the Catalan nation and not a political entity
There is no Catalan nation in a juridical or political way, and there has never been. You can talk about the Catalan nation as you can talk about the zombie nation, or the London people nation, but not in a juridical or political way. In that way, the only nation in Spain is Spain.

there's the Principality of Catalonia, established in the 11th Century
It was part of the Crown of Aragon, under the sovereignity of the King of Aragon. The term Principality of Catalonia was created in the 14th Century, not in the 11th, and it is just a juridical term to designate a territory's jurisdiction. The territory to which the Principality of Catalonia references were, again, a bunch of counties wih no political unity. Note also that the term "Principality of Catalonia" did not originated because it had a prince (Catalonia never had a prince). It is originated from "Princeps", a term from Roman times.

which would later expand into a personal union with the Kingdom of Aragon (led by the Catalan house of Barcelona, by the way)
One of the Kings of Aragon earned the Crown of Aragon because his grandfather was the King of Aragon, and the County of Barcelona because his father was the Count of Barcelona. So the County of Barcelona became part of the Crown of Aragon. This way the King of Aragon earned only the County of Barcelona, that had no political unity with the rest of the Counties that form today's Catalonia (another 7 Counties or so). All the territories possessed by the King of Aragon, including the County of Barcelona, were part of the Crown of Aragon.

A personal union means that two separate realms are ruled by the same king (like Sweden and Norway in the Swedo-Norwegian Union of 1810, or like Scotland and England in the original British union). Both realms remain independent and with their own laws and sovereignity. It remained a separate ordinance from both the Kingdom of Aragon and Spain up until 1716, when all of the Crown of Aragon's lands were stripped of distinction from the Kingdom of Spain.
All the King of Aragon's possessions, including the County of Barcelona and the rest of the Counties that form today's Catalonia (that had no political unit back then, it was a bunch of Counties) where called the Crown of Aragon. And they were all ruled under the rules of the Crown of Aragon and its sovereign was the King of Aragon.

As for Catalonians never fighting for independence, that is wrong too. A quick search reveals at least two instances of outright revolt in 1640and 1687
Those were not revolts for independence, those were revolts of the peasants against the nobility to stop their abuses. It has nothing to do with independence because it was not their goal. The sources of those articles you provide are from Henry Kamen's work (British hispanist historian that lives in Catalonia), and Henry Kamen said about Catalonia: "Catalonia falsifies its history" and that "Separatism is a minority movement among Catalans. Most have been nationalist without being separatist".

as well as several formations of an independent or more sovereign Republic of Catalonia.
Quoting Barrentyna, an universitary Catalan rector in Barcelona that wrote "Historias ocultadas del nacionalismo catalán" (the hidden history of the Catalan nationalism): "Catalonia has never been an independent political reallity"
Pau Claris in 1640, proclaimed Catalonia as a Republic but only lasted one week, then he turned Catalonia to the king of France. In February 1873, Baldomero Lostau tried to proclaim a Catalan Republic within the Spanish Federal Republic but failed miserably. Colonel Macia proclaimed on April 14, 1931 the Catalan Republic, confusely linked to a union of Iberian people, and lasted a couple of days. Finally, on October 6, 1934, Companys proclaimed another ephemeral Republic within an imaginary Spanish Federal Republic which lasted for 10 hours".

And independent state of Catalonia has basis both in the existsence and history of the Catalonian nation as well the political and legal history of the region.
As I have shown, there is no historical basis for a Catalan independent state. Also, it never existed as a political unit outside Spain. And juiridically or politically (that is what we are talking about), it is not a nation and it has never been nation.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2015, 10:42:55 am by MetalRocks »
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"Face each battle, each foe, as though it is your last.

One day it will be"
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