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[Helgoland]

Besides, its much easier to believe its just Putin and his CO. with lots of power in Russia(including media) are the baddies, instead of good part of the actual population. The latter one leaves less room for negotiations and compromises in the future, too, especially if that became the official stance of any involved nation...

If we were to admit that the general Russian population has gone bonkers, we'd have to start taking direct action against the population itself instead of only the leadership. And nobody really wants that, since it would involve more than just a bit of diplomacy...

[Ukrainian Ranger]

Besides, its much easier to believe its just Putin and his CO. with lots of power in Russia(including media) are the baddies, instead of good part of the actual population. The latter one leaves less room for negotiations and compromises in the future, too, especially if that became the official stance of any involved nation...

If we were to admit that the general Russian population has gone bonkers, we'd have to start taking direct action against itthem instead of only the leadership. And nobody really wants that, since it would involve more than just a bit of diplomacy...

Sooner or later the West will have to admit that Putin does exactly what majority of Russians* want and he always did.

*everyone knows that I prefer to use Soviets for them.

[smjjames]

Besides, its much easier to believe its just Putin and his CO. with lots of power in Russia(including media) are the baddies, instead of good part of the actual population. The latter one leaves less room for negotiations and compromises in the future, too, especially if that became the official stance of any involved nation...

If we were to admit that the general Russian population has gone bonkers, we'd have to start taking direct action against itthem instead of only the leadership. And nobody really wants that, since it would involve more than just a bit of diplomacy...

Sooner or later the West will have to admit that Putin does exactly what majority of Russians* want and he always did.

*everyone knows that I prefer to use Soviets for them.

You'd be flamebaiting if you went and called them soviets, well, potentially flamebaiting anyway. Unless they'd take it as a compliment, given how the soviet past is treated? *is slightly confused*

Putting nukes in Crimea is pretty much the equivalent of marking the territory as theirs.

Not to mention ratcheting up the tension among former soviet sattelites a notch.

I REALLY want Putin to die before he starts messing up more shit, but I don't want the Russians to suffer as a result (because, like damn near anything, 99% have nothing to do with the problems caused by the 1%).

But he's Ventari'd himself pretty hard.

Ventari'd? I tried to do a wiki search of ventari, turned up nothing. A google search shows a guild wars thing but I don't get the reference.

A plane arriving from West crashed in pieces East of border in an area where Ukraine has lost several aircraft, including high-flying ones, during the past week. Photographed wreck parts are absolutely filled with holes from ahead, right and slightly above(ingoing holes on wing top surfaces, outcoming on bottom, nose of the aircraft filled with holes including a part that has part of the cockpit window frame). There isn't much brain activity required to deduct the most likely cause. That information was already available on the very day of the incident.

For a second I thought you were talking about MH70 or another passenger plane. Sounds like that particular aircraft is the loser in an aerial dogfight.

[Descan]

It's a Discworld reference, Vetinari, the Patrician of Ankh-Morpork who made himself so intrinsic to the city that no one wants to assassinate him, as it would do more harm to their plans/business than he does by being in power. :v

I think, anyway.

[Sheb]

Well, the thing is, does Putin do what the majority of Russian wants, or does a majority of Russians wants what Putin want them to want? Was George Bush "doing what Americans want" when he was invading Iraq? After all, he had the support of a majority. But it is no clear that this majority was the product of a huge PR campaign, including fake leaks and outright lies. And the Bush administration didn't have the tools Putin does.

[Erkki]

Besides, its much easier to believe its just Putin and his CO. with lots of power in Russia(including media) are the baddies, instead of good part of the actual population. The latter one leaves less room for negotiations and compromises in the future, too, especially if that became the official stance of any involved nation...

If we were to admit that the general Russian population has gone bonkers, we'd have to start taking direct action against the population itself instead of only the leadership. And nobody really wants that, since it would involve more than just a bit of diplomacy...

Indeed...

A plane arriving from West crashed in pieces East of border in an area where Ukraine has lost several aircraft, including high-flying ones, during the past week. Photographed wreck parts are absolutely filled with holes from ahead, right and slightly above(ingoing holes on wing top surfaces, outcoming on bottom, nose of the aircraft filled with holes including a part that has part of the cockpit window frame). There isn't much brain activity required to deduct the most likely cause. That information was already available on the very day of the incident.

For a second I thought you were talking about MH70 or another passenger plane. Sounds like that particular aircraft is the loser in an aerial dogfight.

Spoiler: Man thats totally an accident (click to show/hide)

[Ukrainian Ranger]

smjjames,
I am not trying to insult by calling them Soviets and it s not a very correct term I just can't find a better name.

I believe that among people living in former USSR there are a LOT of  people who call themselves Russians or Ukrainians or Belarusians or Kazakh or whatever else but in fact their self-identification is faulty and they are members of a nation that was created in 20th century and all that happening is their war to get their USSR in one form or another.

[Sergarr]

For one, I don't consider Soviet Union to be better than current Russia. I thought so for a long time, but now I think that the downfall of Soviet Union was unavoidable since it's core structure was faulty. It made people rely too much on others, and have made labor too disassociated from the workers, effectively making them not care about what has been made by the others and inviting massive losses in efficiency.

[Helgoland]

made labor too disassociated from the workers

This is the most hilarious bit, at least with regards to the schism between ideology and reality.

[Owlbread]

It's quite telling that 21st century Russian criticism of the USSR isn't that it was too totalitarian and corrupt, nor is it that it didn't have enough democracy, nor was it that power was overly centralised on one or two leaders, the criticism is that Russia wasn't right wing enough. God help us.

[Guardian G.I.]

For one, I don't consider Soviet Union to be better than current Russia. I thought so for a long time, but now I think that the downfall of Soviet Union was unavoidable since it's core structure was faulty. It made people rely too much on others, and have made labor too disassociated from the workers, effectively making them not care about what has been made by the others and inviting massive losses in efficiency.

It could theoretically be reformed, but in my opinion, it required starting way before 1985 and, most importantly, without Gorbachev and his friends. His colossal incompetence killed the Union.

[Sergarr]

made labor too disassociated from the workers

This is the most hilarious bit, at least with regards to the schism between ideology and reality.

And that schism between ideology and reality was not only limited to what I've said. Stupid omnipresent "secrecy" has made sure of that. And that's why Soviet Union has fallen.

What we must do now is the opposite of "secrecy" and "devious plans to defeat capitalism" and other rely-on-higher-ups bullshit. Knowledge is power, and we must give it to everyone for free, or else we're going to destroy ourselves in our ignorance.

[Owlbread]

Again, the problem wasn't the complete inability of the state to hold itself together post-Stalin, due to him modifying the state to be under his complete control, leading to chaos when the successors were terrible e.g. Brezhnev and Khrushchev, the problem was clearly that things got too damned liberal under that pinko bastard Gorbachev.

[Ukrainian Ranger]

For one, I don't consider Soviet Union to be better than current Russia. I thought so for a long time, but now I think that the downfall of Soviet Union was unavoidable since it's core structure was faulty. It made people rely too much on others, and have made labor too disassociated from the workers, effectively making them not care about what has been made by the others and inviting massive losses in efficiency.

Here we see a typical dream to build USSR 2.0 without old faults (and, no, those faults don't include millions killed)

No Russian can talk about USSR using such words. Only a Soviet can.

Russian would say something like "Hell no! I don't want this shit back. USSR killed millions of my compatriots"

[10ebbor10]

Ventari'd? I tried to do a wiki search of ventari, turned up nothing. A google search shows a guild wars thing but I don't get the reference.

From the Discworld. He made himself so vital to the system nobody wants him dead because it will make the system fall apart.

Correct name is Vetinari.