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Author Topic: Sheb's European Megathread: Remove Feta!  (Read 1748490 times)

Sergarr

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #16605 on: May 12, 2015, 04:29:35 pm »

It's probably related to horses in some way.
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SirQuiamus

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #16606 on: May 12, 2015, 04:35:40 pm »

Why is it called a nightmare anyhow. I mean, it's called the same in Dutch (nachtmerrie) so you'd think those damn mares have something to do with it.
It's ultimately derived from a superstition concerning sleep paralysis:

Quote
The original definition of sleep paralysis was codified by Samuel Johnson in his A Dictionary of the English Language as nightmare, a term that evolved into our modern definition. Such sleep paralysis was widely considered the work of demons, and more specifically incubi, which were thought to sit on the chests of sleepers. In Old English the name for these beings was mare or mære (from a proto-Germanic *marōn, cf. Old Norse mara), hence comes the mare part in nightmare. The word might be etymologically cognate to Greek Marōn (in the Odyssey) and Sanskrit Māra.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2015, 04:39:48 pm by SirQuiamus »
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scriver

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #16607 on: May 12, 2015, 04:46:45 pm »

Does that really help that much? I can see it working with certain things like "doghouse" but a lot of the time the compound words are still pretty arbitrary, like dreamcatcher or butterfly. If I saw those without knowing what they meant, I'd still have to look them up.

Are compound words more intuitive in other languages? The only one I know of is the German word for bat being something like "flapleather". This makes sense if you're pointing at a bat as you say it, but if I'm just encountering the word on its own I have no idea what it means.

And honestly, looking things up doesn't bother me at all. It's so easy nowadays with smartphones.

Well, imagine reading a text about a disease or something to do with the body. In English, all of the terms for body stuff will be in Latin, and I'll have no idea what anything means without constantly looking it up. In Swedish, it's all about the stomachbag and the forearmbone and the twelvefingergut and so on. You immediately grasp the context of the new word because of the words it is made from. And yeah, it's not about compounding words in itself as it is about using your language to create new words and concepts rather than adopting words directly from other languages. Whether you would make it "wordword" or "word word" is completely irrelevant.


Are compound words more intuitive in other languages? The only one I know of is the German word for bat being something like "flapleather". This makes sense if you're pointing at a bat as you say it, but if I'm just encountering the word on its own I have no idea what it means.
It depends. Of course it's intuitive because to a native speaker that is just how the language works, so you never think about it much. Some German compound words are pretty intuitive because they just specify things by describing them more precisely by adding words. Others not so much, like your example "Fledermaus" (actually "flittermouse", that's an English word too), since "Fleder-" has no other meaning or the original meaning is lost, it's not intuitive, it's just a name.

It's "fladdermus" in Swedish too. And while "fleder" might have fallen out of use in German, it's still very alive in both Swedish and English (flitter/flutter). A "flittermouse" or "fluttermouse" would be understood as a mouse that flies around, which is pretty much what it is.


Actually how English forms new terms isn't that different from how German does, it's just that they don't become one word, so "machine gun fire" instead of "Maschinengewehrfeuer". Some English words are compound words exactly like in German though, like drawbridge ("Zugbrücke") or nightmare ("Nachtmahr", an antiquated word, where just like in English the last part has lost it's original meaning).

I am not saying English don't do it at all under any circumstances. I am saying it does it less, particularly the closer to modern times we get.


I just realized that the Estonian word "nahkhiir" ('leathermouse') may be a mistaken loan translation from German. It's a pretty intuitive word for a bat, though – I've always liked it. 

Another Swedish word for bat is "leather patch". It could be a mash up of two different names.


fakedit: damn ninjas...
Why is it called a nightmare anyhow. I mean, it's called the same in Dutch (nachtmerrie) so you'd think those damn mares have something to do with it.
It's ultimately derived from a superstition concerning sleep paralysis:

Quote
The original definition of sleep paralysis was codified by Samuel Johnson in his A Dictionary of the English Language as nightmare, a term that evolved into our modern definition. Such sleep paralysis was widely considered the work of demons, and more specifically incubi, which were thought to sit on the chests of sleepers. In Old English the name for these beings was mare or mære (from a proto-Germanic *marōn, cf. Old Norse mara), hence comes the mare part in nightmare. The word might be etymologically cognate to Greek Marōn (in the Odyssey) and Sanskrit Māra.

In Swedish the "sleep demon" has a different name from the "female horse" ("Mara" respectively "märr"), but the demon/troll/fey is still closely linked to horses and riding in it's concept: To be under the hold of such a creature was called "to be ridden by the mare", for example.
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lijacote

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #16608 on: May 12, 2015, 04:49:11 pm »

Is this a good time to mention that the Dutch word for tortoise literally means shieldtoad.

I think its is.
Same in German. Also pretty intuitive I think.
Same in Finnish.
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Infinite wrath, and infinite despair?
Which way I fly is Hell; myself am Hell;
And, in the lowest deep, a lower deep
Still threatening to devour me opens wide,
To which the Hell I suffer seems a Heaven.

Frumple

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #16609 on: May 12, 2015, 04:54:13 pm »

In English, all of the terms for body stuff will be in Latin, and I'll have no idea what anything means without constantly looking it up.
... unless you speak english, which has a lot of bleedover from latin. Lot of time you can figure out what fancy technical-use latin means pretty trivially just because of what you know of english and (very) basic etymology.

Lot of doctors and whatnot actually do make a(n at least) basic study of latin, though, to make that stuff easier to identify.
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Avis-Mergulus

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #16610 on: May 12, 2015, 05:21:14 pm »

...Wait, isn't this the politics thread? Where did all the etymological discussion come from?

Can I pull up a chair for myself? I promise to only listen respectfully and not yell and froth at the mouth at all ever.
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Grim Portent

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #16611 on: May 12, 2015, 05:57:15 pm »

...Wait, isn't this the politics thread? Where did all the etymological discussion come from?

Can I pull up a chair for myself? I promise to only listen respectfully and not yell and froth at the mouth at all ever.

But yelling and frothing is half the fun.  :(
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Frumple

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #16612 on: May 12, 2015, 06:02:01 pm »

...Wait, isn't this the politics thread? Where did all the etymological discussion come from?
Discussion of nation-states a handful of pages back was where it originated.

In other news, apparently ireland is holding a referendum on minimum age to run for presidency and same-sex marriage in a few weeks. Be interesting to see how it turns out.
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Avis-Mergulus

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #16613 on: May 12, 2015, 06:22:15 pm »

...Wait, isn't this the politics thread? Where did all the etymological discussion come from?

Can I pull up a chair for myself? I promise to only listen respectfully and not yell and froth at the mouth at all ever.

But yelling and frothing is half the fun.  :(
Tried it. Was not fun. I have a predisposition to yelling and frothing, it seems. The few times I indulged it, it resulted in a multi-page punch-up at the end of which I invariably said something I to this day regret. I'll just watch for now, I think.
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Il Palazzo

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #16614 on: May 12, 2015, 06:29:31 pm »

minimum age to run for presidency
I never understood why this isn't something like 5 everywhere around the world.
Sure, the bar being set so high might seem dismissive of the part of the population under 5, but it is dictated by the pragmatic requirements of the office. The candidates must be old enough to develop object permanence, so that they remember who gave them their bribesdonations.
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smjjames

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #16615 on: May 12, 2015, 06:39:25 pm »

In other news, apparently ireland is holding a referendum on minimum age to run for presidency

What are they changing that to?

minimum age to run for presidency
I never understood why this isn't something like 5 everywhere around the world.
Sure, the bar being set so high might seem dismissive of the part of the population under 5, but it is dictated by the pragmatic requirements of the office. The candidates must be old enough to develop object permanence, so that they remember who gave them their bribesdonations.

Lol.

The US has a min age of 30 I think, which seems reasonable enough.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2015, 06:41:33 pm by smjjames »
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Frumple

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #16616 on: May 12, 2015, 06:42:36 pm »

Didn't bother to check what the new minimum would be, just that they'd be allowing folks under 35 to give it a shot. Presumably the age of majority? Quick google says 21.
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Grim Portent

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #16617 on: May 12, 2015, 06:44:58 pm »

Honestly I think nations would be better off with a maximum age rather than a minimum one for heads of state.
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Descan

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #16618 on: May 12, 2015, 06:49:56 pm »

The youngest, gayest Irish president when?
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Frumple

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #16619 on: May 12, 2015, 06:51:44 pm »

Eeehhh... minimum's better future proofing, methinks. Maximum age that makes sense now might not make sense in fifty years.
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