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[smjjames]

Pakistan is totally different. The history goes back to joint US/Pakistan efforts in Afghanistan back in the 1980's. Pakistan's ISI intelligence service armed militants, with US backing, to topple the Soviet-back secular government. Pakistan government / ISI elements continued to work with militants after the war as a proxy for Pakistani influence in Afghanistan.

It was a huge mistake to destabilize things, other than being "dirty commies" the Soviet-backed Afghans were actually a lot more palatable on a human level. but another mistake was the USA abandoning it's allies in Afghanistan after the Soviets left: there were good moderate people like Massoud that the West left to fend for themselves against the Pakistan-backed nutjob element.

I think Pakistan is tolerated because it's basically the only way to access Afghanistan. If you don't have the bases there you can't wage war in Afghanistan at all. Otherwise you have to fight from bases in Iran or the ex-Soviet territories.

Yeah, and all that cold war destabilization and manipulation is coming back to bite us in the ass, several times.

That region is so complex and fractured in destabilization that sometimes it just seems like we should just slag the region (which is obviously, not an option), or maybe just get out of there and let everybody in there fight it out.

And now Iran is doing manipulation and destabilization of it's own.

[mainiac]

People abscribe far too much significance to American actions and pay far too little attention to the underlying dangers of the situation that were averted such as, y'know, the growing risk of nuclear war between India and Pakistan that preceeded the coup...

[reality.auditor]

But being a superpower without having a strong economical and political system behind you is impossible. Current Russia cannot physically be a world's superpower. Without communism or any other strong ideology, this is not possible.

Your arguments are good, but you should explain that to Putin, not us.

I don't believe that Putin doesn't know that.

You see, I think Putin knows that and he is trying anyway. As you said, it is doomed to fail, only question is how many people (including Russians) will die before Russia fells apart*.

Iran has spent more then a decade supporting efforts to undermine democracy in Lebanon and increasing tensions between Hamas and Israel.

Pretty weak argument, considering that USA had no problem with undermining democracy in many countries (not to mention many other things). I like many ideas propagated by USA, but I consider USA itself as morally bankrupt nation. Practice what you preach and all of that. If this is any consolation, I consider many other countries as even worse, but obviously it does not justify USA actions.

or maybe just get out of there and let everybody in there fight it out.

Yeah, because doing exactly that in Syria worked SO WELL.

* And that, obviously, will be fault of Evil West, not Putin's warmongering and that little tiny thing called "consequences of one's actions". Obviously.

[lorb]

The US-Iran relationship began to deteriorate 1979 when the pro-American Shah was ousted. The US allowed the Shah to seek treatment for his cancer in the US and that angered some Iranian groups into taking everyone in the US embassy hostage. Relations never bettered after that. But this thread is _european_ politics.

[MarcAFK]

Iran is in Europe isn't it?

[Darvi]

According to CNN it's probably right next to Ukraine, so yeah.

[MonkeyHead]

If by virtue of sports Israel is in Europe, I see no reason why anywhere can not be.

[MarcAFK]

Damnit, I couldn't find any maps illustrating my awesomly geographical powers.

[Erkki]

Also, Australia in the Eurovision. Wheeee!!

[Zangi]

The US-Iran relationship began to deteriorate 1979 when the pro-American Shah was ousted. The US allowed the Shah to seek treatment for his cancer in the US and that angered some Iranian groups into taking everyone in the US embassy hostage. Relations never bettered after that. But this thread is _european_ politics.

Wow, that wikipedia article is pretty badly laid out.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran%E2%80%93United_States_relations

Do if I'm understanding it right... there are 2 different heads of government.  The Shah and the Prime Minister?  Cause their reigns overlapped.
Shah - 1941-1979, close ties with US and overthrown by Iranian Revolution.
Prime Minister - -1953, CIA backed coup cause oil

The pro-murica shah was not a bastion of human welfare to begin with.  Not cause he went to murica.
EDIT: Shit pretty sure this was in there too but I couldn't find it again.  He probably just pissed off the Islamic hardliners.

[Helgoland]

Yeah, pretty much the worst dictator of the region IIRC.

[Sheb]

Basically, it was a constitutional monarchy, then Mossadegh, the Prime Minister was ousted by the Shah with US and British support and it became a good old-fashioned absolute monarchy/dictatorship.

[Askot Bokbondeler]

but the pm was a commmunist!

[Owlbread]

Sheb's Indo-European Politics megathread? I suppose that discounts Finland, Hungary, Estonia and the Basque Country from our discussions though.

[Descan]

Yeah, but who cares about those guys, anyway?