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[Owlbread]

The thing is - believe it or not the guy that wrote the article is actually Scottish. Really old school Tory/Unionist. It's interesting hearing how the voice of the old school Unionists in Scotland sounds more extreme than anything England has produced.

He's actually a good author/writer, won all kinds of awards and stuff. I'm not a fan, as you would imagine but I'll give him his due.

[Sergarr]

It's not the nationality, it's the state of soul that defines your nature.

[Owlbread]

Last year when Scotland voted No I expected the British state and the British establishment as a whole to do everything in their power to integrate Scotland back into the system. I thought they'd deliver 100% on "the Vow" for one thing, giving us just enough power that it would make a difference, but not enough that we could use it to separate ourselves further from the UK (e.g. power over corporation tax would divide us from the UK, but maybe welfare devolution wouldn't). I expected a concerted campaign from all the big forces to go down the oft-mentioned "lovebombing" route; I expected to see documentaries on TV about how Scotland has contributed to the building of the UK and the Empire in the past and all the rest of it.

Instead... it feels like we're being pushed away. I'm not basing that impression on Daily Mail articles though, I'm going by the behaviour of the Conservatives and Labour. After Scotland voted No, the first thing David Cameron talked about in his morning-after speech was how we needed to focus more on England now. What on earth was he thinking? He needed to talk about Scotland for months - that was our time, where we would be taken seriously and there'd maybe be a debate about what kind of devolution we should get etc. Instead it all got brushed under the carpet - the vow abandoned, watered down wherever possible and we ended up with Smith's proposals - road signs, how wonderful. Then Cameron literally states in a speech a month or two ago "right, that's your lot, no more devolution after this". I'm not even joking.

I think the only reason why they (Westminster/their cronies etc) could be screwing this up so badly is because they are indeed as out-of-touch as we in the various pro-independence movements always said they were. Either that or they're just incredibly stupid. Greed must come into it too - the elites are so greedy that they want to hold all the power and can't bear to even devolve a bit of it to us, even when their survival depends on it.

[Descan]

Last year when Scotland voted No I expected the British state and the British establishment as a whole to do everything in their power to integrate Scotland back into the system. I thought they'd deliver 100% on "the Vow" for one thing, giving us just enough power that it would make a difference, but not enough that we could use it to separate ourselves further from the UK (e.g. power over corporation tax would divide us from the UK, but maybe welfare devolution wouldn't). I expected a concerted campaign from all the big forces to go down the oft-mentioned "lovebombing" route; I expected to see documentaries on TV about how Scotland has contributed to the building of the UK and the Empire in the past and all the rest of it.

Wait, seriously? I thought you were the one who said [paraphrased] "We all know this is just a bunch of lies and when the Scottish people see these fall through, they'll want to vote again for a real try." Or something like that. >_>

[Graknorke]

I reckon they're panicking over how smaller parties have more popular support now. So they're trying to win over the 80-something percent of the population that is in England, by completely any other possible responsibilities.
So it's yet another case of trying to give the majority what (the politicians think) they want and ending up failing miserably. Shocker.

[Owlbread]

Wait, seriously? I thought you were the one who said [paraphrased] "We all know this is just a bunch of lies and when the Scottish people see these fall through, they'll want to vote again for a real try." Or something like that. >_>

Well now, you're identifying the hopes I articulated in public, rather than the private concerns I had i.e. that they would actually start devolving stuff, but in such a way that would be detrimental to the cause. I can see now that was pretty damned difficult to do, and they simply don't have the tactical ability to be able to pull off something like that.

I reckon they're panicking over how smaller parties have more popular support now. So they're trying to win over the 80-something percent of the population that is in England, by completely any other possible responsibilities.
So it's yet another case of trying to give the majority what (the politicians think) they want and ending up failing miserably. Shocker.

I think they're facing a war on multiple fronts, as you say. In Scotland though Labour are astonishingly incompetent. I know I always say that but at the moment they really take the biscuit - recent opinion polls show Labour are facing a wipeout even in places that voted solidly No, like Kirkcaldy and Dumfries and Galloway. Labour leader Jim Murphy's answer is to focus on the 190,000 Labour voters who have never voted SNP, but voted Yes - the vast majority of whom are in the Glasgow area. They're spending all their funds trying to keep certain high profile MPs in power in Yes-voting districts like Glasgow East when they really need to worry about holding onto seats in places like Edinburgh. It's almost like Jim Murphy is in complete denial; those 190,000 are gone. Lost. They need to concentrate on holding onto the No-voting Labour support bases just to survive.

So yeah, I think they may be facing a war on multiple fronts but even on those individual fronts, the campaign teams have no idea what they're doing.

[Sergarr]

I think the only reason why they (Westminster/their cronies etc) could be screwing this up so badly is because they are indeed as out-of-touch as we in the various pro-independence movements always said they were. Either that or they're just incredibly stupid. Greed must come into it too - the elites are so greedy that they want to hold all the power and can't bear to even devolve a bit of it to us, even when their survival depends on it.

It's really simple: they thought that they've won the general battle, and now they can do anything they want to the "loser" (i.e. Scotland) and it can't do anything against them.

It's a very Napoleonic system of thought. Very 19th century, and very English. Also very foolish of them.

[Loud Whispers]

Loud Whispers how does the current fees system cripple poor graduates? The 'debt' in the UK isn't a real debt, it's a de facto graduate tax on income above a threshold. Everyone treating it like a real loan that must be repaid is deluded. You get given money to study for free just like in  Sergarr's Soviet system. Only difference is, you have to back some of it a little bit at a time if you later earn over a relatively high threshold.
I don't set out to defend the system, but this kind of gross misunderstanding is what puts people off studying in the first place.

Considering that what will surmount to a £27-36k loan is more than enough to cripple a student who fails to secure an adequately paid job or a job at all after completing a course, student loans and maintenance loans are given out with very specific terms designed to ensure no such crippling takes place.

Please read what I say.

You know, this kind of thing just smacks of the British version of "American Exceptionalism."
"Oh yes, We LOVE you Scottland! Please don't go! (We get our jollies keeping you pushed down and under our thumb!)"
Or
"OMG, you mean we might actually have a Scottish dominated parliament (and or, prime minister) some day!? Oh noes! Our centuries worth of asshattery will doom us all!"

If Scotland rules England, I can foresee the Thames foaming with blood.

When was the referendum hold, just a year ago? It's fun to see the English-men squirm trying to fool everyone at the same time and failing.

1. Can we not use the Daily Mail to represent England or Britain? It's the fucking Daily 'everything causes muslim cancer' Mail.
Seriously. There are a whole sleuth of papers and news outlets with actual rational opinions and arguments better capable of representing Britain. The Guardian. The BBC. The Independent. The Telegraph.

Exactly!
The British view themselves as being somehow innately better at governance than the Scotts, despite the two having co-habitated and integrated with each other to such a degree that the differences are pretty superficial.  There's pride in heritage, and that's about it. Still just petty nationalism in convenient wrapper.

2. If you don't even know the difference between a Brit and an Englishman you have no right to speak for either.
This is an issue of fairness. England already gets the least funds out of the UK allocated per capita than Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. With devomax another issue comes about:
English MPs will not be able to vote on issues that only affect Scotland. Fair enough. Yet Scottish MPs will continue to be able to vote on issues that only affect England.
Traditionally the SNP haven't voted in Westminster on English matters. Now that they could potentially prop up a desperate labour, they're much more willing to vote on issues like the NHS in England. Hence why William Hague wants to set up an English parliament for England, separate from the British parliament for the UK.
I haven't yet formed an opinion on the matter, but I'll look into it later.

"Scots ruling England" already happened, and it ended up with the UK.

Yes, but that's only because James VI liked England better. That's why he ruled from England and his descendents all grew up English.

Machiavelli says the best way for a foreign King to rule over rebellious natives and nobles is to move there; see the Ottomans moving into Constantinople. With religious tensions in England as they were, it was a wise move.

[Sergarr]

This is an issue of fairness. England already gets the least funds out of the UK allocated per capita than Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. With devomax another issue comes about:
English MPs will not be able to vote on issues that only affect Scotland. Fair enough. Yet Scottish MPs will continue to be able to vote on issues that only affect England.

Before, English MPs could push for any decision in Scotland and they couldn't do anything. Now, the tide has turned.

[Owlbread]

1. Can we not use the Daily Mail to represent England or Britain? It's the fucking Daily 'everything causes muslim cancer' Mail.
Seriously. There are a whole sleuth of papers and news outlets with actual rational opinions and arguments better capable of representing Britain. The Guardian. The BBC. The Independent. The Telegraph.

Ah yes, let's take a look, shall we?

Spoiler: The Guardian's official cartoon, today (click to show/hide)

I didn't even "get" this cartoon, other than the apparent reference to Scots being supposedly incestuous.

Spoiler: The Guardian, 2013 (click to show/hide)

"Do you agree that Scotland should go and fuck itself?"

Unfortunately all those sources you've listed only represent London, not Britain, but at least they're better at doing that job than the Daily Mail, I'll give you that. I'd rather read the Independent than most papers for one thing.

This is an issue of fairness. England already gets the least funds out of the UK allocated per capita than Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.

The reason why the other regions of the UK get more per capita than England is because (I believe) per head they contribute more in their own right than England. I can't quite remember the figures, but while England contributes the most "as a whole", Scotland contributed something like 9.9% of UK tax take with a very tiny share of the population (compare 5 million with 50 million+) but only gets 9.3% of UK tax spending. As you can tell it's been a while since we debated these issues and I'm unwell so I don't quite understand it all anymore but you can surely see where I'm coming from with this.

And yet... I'm not quite convinced of this. Isn't it the case that Wales is really getting shafted through Barnett? I've often heard that if Wales was a part of England they'd get more out of Barnett than if they were a separate region of the UK.

With devomax another issue comes about:
English MPs will not be able to vote on issues that only affect Scotland. Fair enough. Yet Scottish MPs will continue to be able to vote on issues that only affect England.

That's already the case regardless of the white elephant of "devo-max" coming into play. Full fiscal autonomy/devo max is miles and miles away, but there's still an unpleasant scenario in Westminster right now where unaccountable Scottish (and Welsh and Northern Irish) MPs hold influence over English matters. The "West Lothian Question", as it is known - the great oddity created as a result of a system of devolution that neglected England.

Traditionally the SNP haven't voted in Westminster on English matters. Now that they could potentially prop up a desperate labour, they're much more willing to vote on issues like the NHS in England.

The official reason why they're willing to vote on issues like the NHS in England though is because they believe it will have a direct effect on the state of the Scottish NHS - something Ed Miliband was arguing yesterday, much to the amusement of the SNP.

Hence why William Hague wants to set up an English parliament for England, separate from the British parliament for the UK.
I haven't yet formed an opinion on the matter, but I'll look into it later.

Has Hague definitely stated his support for an English parliament? That's absolutely fantastic if so, I thought they were just pursuing the idea of Westminster being the English parliament where non-English MPs couldn't vote on English matters.

[Sergarr]

Hopefully the threat of Scots ruling England will make those English faces be more welcome to the idea of Scottish independence.

[Owlbread]

Hopefully the threat of Scots ruling England will make those English faces be more welcome to the idea of Scottish independence.

I hope so too. I welcome the flurry of anti-SNP/Scottish stuff that's coming out of a lot of sectors in the London press - not only will it encourage the English to think more independently about how their country is ruled, it will also remind Scots that they're not really valued as partners in decision-making at a UK level.

[smjjames]

Anyways, on Russia, apparently four of the five suspects in Nemetzovs (sp?) murder are Chechen. That just seems too, well, convenient. Though one of them did blow himself up.

Maybe he did have some enemies over there, no idea.

[wierd]

Given that Putin has used the KGB as a goon squad against political rivals in the past (abduction and beating the shit out of gary kasparov comes instantly to mind), and recent actions with ukraine has made putin less accepted internationally, and less popular economically, I would not be at all surprised if the chechen connection is just false flagging, with putin just being putin and using his soviet union style methods of quelling dissent.

[SirQuiamus]

Given that Putin has used the KGB as a goon squad against political rivals in the past (abduction and beating the shit out of gary kasparov comes instantly to mind), and recent actions with ukraine has made putin less accepted internationally, and less popular economically, I would not be at all surprised if the chechen connection is just false flagging, with putin just being putin and using his soviet union style methods of quelling dissent.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_apartment_bombings