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[mainiac]

Unless you're just harping on about Putin not investigating this because you think it makes him a generally sucky leader, that's your implication.

No we are harping on the fact that people are automatically dismissing criticism of Putin.

I just find it horrific that we go through conversation after conversation like this.  People say some completely unsubstantiated assertion.  Other people criticize that assertion as baseless.  Then we get 10 fucking million Tu Quoque arguments.

[Darvi]

I think the general point against Putin is that even though he might not have actively planned this, he's still benefitting from it so people aren't putting past him to turn a blind eye to the assassin.

[smjjames]

It's also possible that it was some crazy person who did it.

[Sergarr]

I think the general point against Putin is that even though he might not have actively planned this, he's still benefitting from it so people aren't putting past him to turn a blind eye to the assassin.

The minuscule benefits he gets from Nemtzov not releasing whatever information he had and not talking about economy are in no way comparable to the fact that he received a huge international reputation hit (yet again) and opposition's side has got a new argument against him that will probably be used for another 10 years to bring more people to their side.

[mainiac]

And you would think any part of the Russian government gives a shit about international reputation because...?

[Sergarr]

And you would think any part of the Russian government gives a shit about international reputation because...?

Because more sanctions? Also, lots of people in the government store funds outside of Russia, and as Qaddafi case shown us, these assets can be frozen if your international reputation is bad enough.

[smjjames]

I think the general point against Putin is that even though he might not have actively planned this, he's still benefitting from it so people aren't putting past him to turn a blind eye to the assassin.

The minuscule benefits he gets from Nemtzov not releasing whatever information he had and not talking about economy are in no way comparable to the fact that he received a huge international reputation hit (yet again) and opposition's side has got a new argument against him that will probably be used for another 10 years to bring more people to their side.

Why would he get a huge international reputation hit over this? It hasn't been proved that the Russian government is behind it.

[Descan]

If it requires absolute proof of wrongdoing before sanctions  will be applied or international relations to dip, then that means there is absolute proof that Russia is in Ukraine being a naughty boy and thugging around, and nay-sayers are incorrect at best. Logically, I mean.

[reality.auditor]

It's also possible that it was some crazy person who did it.

According to this article, nope. "Some crazy person" could not pull it off.

The logistics of carrying out the killing on a narrow and busy bridge where it is "very difficult to be unnoticed either in a car or even on foot" and where it is extremely difficult to ensure that the escape car is able to reach the scene at the precise moment it is needed indicate to Soldatov considerable planning and coordination.

The minuscule benefits he gets from Nemtzov not releasing whatever information he had and not talking about economy

You "forgot" about terrorizing opposition just before march and current Kreml elite. More below.

And you would think any part of the Russian government gives a shit about international reputation because...?

Because more sanctions?

I don't see anyone calling for more sanctions just for this killing. You are making things up.

Also, lots of people in the government store funds outside of Russia, and as Qaddafi case shown us, these assets can be frozen if your international reputation is bad enough.

And what exactly that goverment elite can do? Putin just shown them what can happen to someone that opposes him. Choice of Nemtsov in this context matters, because he had once very high position in Russian goverment.

BTW Putin decided his international reputation does not matter the second he annexed Crimea. I find any "but but Putin/Russia international reputation" argument a little... unconvincing.

[smjjames]

It's also possible that it was some crazy person who did it.

According to this article, nope. "Some crazy person" could not pull it off.

The logistics of carrying out the killing on a narrow and busy bridge where it is "very difficult to be unnoticed either in a car or even on foot" and where it is extremely difficult to ensure that the escape car is able to reach the scene at the precise moment it is needed indicate to Soldatov considerable planning and coordination.

I agree, the whole thing just seems too planned, too... professional, but my point is that it might not even be anybody connected to the government. It might even be the Russian mob.

[mainiac]

There's a rather beautiful symmetry to the public reactions.  Anyone who would believe the Russian government might be behind something like this is probably already a dissenter.  Anyone who supports the Russian government will dismiss the possibility out of hand they had anything to do with this.  So the opposition gets intimidated and none of the supporters get alienated.

I wonder if past a certain point it would start to make sense to do reprehensible things with no motive at all.  That way you would just solidify the divide between the patriots and the traitors.  Having no motive would be all the evidence you need to convince the patriots.

[reality.auditor]

I agree, the whole thing just seems too planned, too... professional, but my point is that it might not even be anybody connected to the government.

Whoever did that, did it with at least Putin permission. Any opposition leader or important figure of opposition in Russia is tailed 24/7. While Russia already was slipping into totalitarian direction, current assasination just accelerated it. We will already live in interesting times.

I wonder if past a certain point it would start to make sense to do reprehensible things with no motive at all.  That way you would just solidify the divide between the patriots and the traitors.  Having no motive would be all the evidence you need to convince the patriots.

Well, there was anti-Maidan rally not so long ago, calling for "purge" of "fifth column". Guess what happened? Someone from their list got purged.

Now, of course, same people are oh soo enraged that CIA/Ukraine/opposition/anyoneexceptobvious did... er... what they wanted? Oh you, Russian logic.

[Owlbread]

Ed Miliband has announced his party plan on cutting English tuition fees to £6,000 from their current £9,000. George Kerevan, writing in the National, argues fees should be scrapped entirely and funded with a wealth tax, lest our economy suffocate and expire under a mountain of private debt, as the fee-based system used by the Americans will likely lead to in the States in coming decades.

[mainiac]

Ed Miliband has announced his party plan on cutting English tuition fees to £6,000 from their current £9,000. George Kerevan, writing in the National, argues fees should be scrapped entirely and funded with a wealth tax, lest our economy suffocate and expire under a mountain of private debt, as the fee-based system used by the Americans has lead to.

FTFY

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Yeah, that's been the status quo for decades. It's just gotten worse because it's been two generations of it now, so most people's parents can't help them shoulder the debt either.