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[Askot Bokbondeler]

what kind of evidence would barter leave, anyway? we have evidence of long distance trade from long before metalic currency, and although a gift economy works well within a stable comunity where empathy and expected long term retribution are meaningful things, i don't think it would support a trade network spannig thousands of kilometers.
take the incas, for example, as an empire they had a centralized economy and wellfare state that probably evolved out of some sort of gift economy, but they traded with outside comunities using a prototypical currency of bronze axeheads that were too thin and of a sub-optimal alloy to be usable but probaly evolved out of widespread use of axeheads as "bartering" unit, and within the empire there was widespread "black market" direct bartering
i don't think one economic system precludes the other, gift economy is all well and good, but sometimes you really want something from someone and that someone kinda wants it too so you need to bribe them into "gifting" it. gift economy was still going strong in the european middle ages and one can easily argue that it survives today in the western world, among close knit groups of friends and places where neighbours still interact, it's just not what we usually think of as "economy"
that's why i say that one must read goat entrails with a grain of salt

[scrdest]

what kind of evidence would barter leave, anyway?

Probably things like items the person had no way of producing himself, and if we're talking inter-village barter, material differences (varying types of stone corresponding to local stone in another place nearby-ish, that kinda thing).

[Askot Bokbondeler]

Wild guess: probably not much bigger, if at all, than Dunbar number levels. On the order of a single tribe/village.

a tribe is much bigger than a village though, its rather more like a nation defined by claimed common ancestry

How big were these gift economies?
(Also, linksies?)

some are pretty big, think villages sending people on week long expeditions to gift pigs to villages they have good relations with.

[mainiac]

(Also, linksies?)

https://libcom.org/files/__Debt__The_First_5_000_Years.pdf

He has some questionable notions in there regarding post industrial economies but his pre-agriculture anthropology was well received.

what kind of evidence would barter leave, anyway?

Gift economies last until this day in some remote parts of the world.  But more relevantly there were many gift economies well into the 20th century that let anthropologists observe first hand how people acted in gift economy cultures.

There were some cases of barter between tribes but not as barter as a primary means of economic organization.

i don't think one economic system precludes the other, gift economy is all well and good, but sometimes you really want something from someone and that someone kinda wants it too so you need to bribe them into "gifting" it. gift economy was still going strong in the european middle ages and one can easily argue that it survives today in the western world

That's projecting our monetary world view backwards.  Go back farther.  Imagine you live all your life with basically the same 50 people.  People die new ones are born and every decade a couple people leave the tribe/village or join the tribe/village.  Basically every person in the world for you is a friend or at least a very close acquaintance.  Your friend needs something.  Your reasons for giving it to them or not giving it to them are complex but it's not a trade.

[Helgoland]

That would point to very small communities though - what about gift economies on a larger scale?
(And on what page of that book should I start reading?)

[mainiac]

Yes, when the rise of agricultural temple and palace towns is probably what prompted the shift away from gift economies.

It's been a while since I read that book but I imagine the "myth of barter" would be a good place.

[Askot Bokbondeler]

Gift economies last until this day in some remote parts of the world.  But more relevantly there were many gift economies well into the 20th century that let anthropologists observe first hand how people acted in gift economy cultures.

There were some cases of barter between tribes but not as barter as a primary means of economic organization.

that's what i'm arguing for. i guess we just disagree on how important and widespread inter-tribe exanges were. we do find italian silex(chert?) here in portugal from pre agriculture sites. also the romans were bartering with currency-less societies, and "modern" europeans bartered with africans and native americans. do you think it's was their(europeans) idead?(honest question, not being snarky or anything. also i would actually enjoy some interesting sources if you have them at hand)

[Descan]

@Askot: To clarify, I was using the term tribe to mean a singular nomadic band.

[mainiac]

that's what i'm arguing for. i guess we just disagree on how important and widespread inter-tribe exanges were. we do find italian silex(chert?) here in portugal from pre agriculture sites. also the romans were bartering with currency-less societies, and "modern" europeans bartered with africans and native americans. do you think it's was their(europeans) idead?(honest question, not being snarky or anything. also i would actually enjoy some interesting sources if you have them at hand)

Native Americans were a currency society.  Native Americans as they are generally known are also the fringe of a much more settled and populace civilization in the Andes, Meso-america and the Mississippi watershed.  They were no more a pre-currency society then the British after the fall of the western roman empire.  The post Roman British, btw, would be an excellent example of a post-currency society that had a severe shortage of gold and silver and reverted to very extensive barter arrangements.

Barter would happen when people deal with outsiders.  Someone who you have no personal affiliation with isn't going to give you something for nothing and you wont do the same.  But dealing with outsiders isn't a very peripheral part of most people's lives until the establishments of governments and the militaries they needed to supply.

[Mechatronic]

Indigenous Australians creation myths were of giant animals that transversed the continent creating the landscape. Songs that described these paths were used to aid navigation. Each song would be sung in the language of the people whose country it was but they could be put together to cover large distances.

Such long distance paths were important because of the important trading routes (e.g. Gammage 2011, Kerwin 2010, and references therein) traversing Australia for the trading and exchange of goods, such as the export of ochre from Wardaman country: “Red and yellow from this area are considered very powerful and were traded for long distances for use in ceremonies” (Lee & Harney, 2009). A journey, sometimes taking months, would have several functions, including attending ceremonies, as well as trading. The trading itself might include the trading of intellectual property, such is songs and dances, as well as material objects.

http://www.atnf.csiro.au/people/Ray.Norris/papers/n315.pdf

[Sergarr]

This is very interesting and all, but it's not really European news...

But this is: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/german-army-paints-broomsticks-black-to-resemble-machine-guns-in-nato-exercises-10054468.html

[mainiac]

The Brits did that before WWI and they won that one.

[Sebastian2203]

I cannot find news article in English so I apologize.

There are rumors weapons used in French terrorist attack were supplied from Slovakia ....
My illusions of living in awesome safe and peaceful country are gone...

[Owlbread]

I cannot find news article in English so I apologize.

There are rumors weapons used in French terrorist attack were supplied from Slovakia ....
My illusions of living in awesome safe and peaceful country are gone...

If by "awesome safe and peaceful country" you mean Slovakia then you're still in the clear. Slovakia being a centre for the illegal arms trade doesn't make it a centre for Islamic extremism.

[scrdest]

I cannot find news article in English so I apologize.

There are rumors weapons used in French terrorist attack were supplied from Slovakia ....
My illusions of living in awesome safe and peaceful country are gone...

If by "awesome safe and peaceful country" you mean Slovakia then you're still in the clear. Slovakia being a centre for the illegal arms trade doesn't make it a centre for Islamic extremism.

I wouldn't be surprised if the rumours of that were true, given Czech Republic is, due to their lax gun laws, and the two used to be one country for most of the XXth century.