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[lorb]

I think it´s pure PR. He's no better nor worse  than your average pope, IMO

If he is really just average please name a pope that was better or more progressive/liberal/tolerant. He still is the head of the roman catholic church and with that comes a load of backwards ideas but I can't name a pope that I was less unhappy about. (John Paul II was kinda decent imho.)

[10ebbor10]

Well then, in other news.

Switzerland has recently decided to abandon their Franc to Euro cap, with significant economical consequences.  And the ECB might actually start quantitative easening.

http://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/jan/18/draghi-ecb-quantitative-easing-too-late

[Sheb]

So public discourse is getting weird in France. After the Charlie Hebdo attacks, millions took to the streets, saying they wanted to defend freedom of speech. All politicians took turns stating that freedom of speech was important, and should be defended at all costs.

Since then, about a dozen people have been jailed for "defending terrorism". As far as I can tell, they're mostly young man that said stuff like "The Kouachi brothers should have killed you too!" to cops while drunk.

Humorist and notorious antisemitic asshole Dieudonné was briefly arrested for tweeting "Je suis Charlie Coulibaly".

Politicians are now talking of a "French PATRIOT Act" as if it was a good idea. They all agree that clamping on people promoting extremism online is a good idea. Never mind the fact that there wasn't any enquiry into what could have been done to stop the attack. The obvious response (more funding to watch more closely people coming back from Syria) doesn't seem to have much traction.

The French education minister recently went on a rant in Parliament, saying « Même là où il n’y a pas eu d’incidents, il y a eu de trop nombreux questionnements de la part des élèves. Et nous avons tous entendu les "Oui je soutiens Charlie, mais", les "deux poids, deux mesures", les "pourquoi défendre la liberté d’expression ici et pas là ?" Ces questions nous sont insupportables, surtout lorsqu’on les entend à l’école, qui est chargée de transmettre des valeurs » (Translation: "Even where there was no incident, there were too many questions from the students. We all heard the 'Yes, I support Charlie, but...", the "why are we defending freedom of speech there and not there?". We cannot stand those questions, especially in school, which should transmit values".)

So we're getting into that weird situation, were everyone is mandated to use its freedom of speech to say what the government wants. The cognitive dissonance is amazing.

[Graknorke]

But you just said that you don't know his views!  The views you say you are judging him on.

I have just decided that if I am ever on trial I will forgo my right to a trial by jury.

I knew the views represented in that and a couple other short quotes from the newspaper article I read about it. Which is why I was talking about what's relevant to that, rather than other popey things I have no idea about.

And love you too <3

[ChairmanPoo]

Or are you going to argue that I shouldn't take ChairmanPoo's words literally as he insists that the Pope should be judged by taking his word's literally?

And... STRIKE THREE. Where did I state that, exactly? Can you quote me? Ahh, thought so.
It's pretty hilarious that you complain about people taking the pope's words out of context when you're making up stuff on the spot.

If he is really just average please name a pope that was better or more progressive/liberal/tolerant.

They are all pretty much the same. Some arrange their public image to look more conservative, others to look more liberal; in the end it's all PR. In the meaningful nuances they are all the same (just like the factions that support them, IMO)

[Sergarr]

So we're getting into that weird situation, were everyone is mandated to use its freedom of speech to say what the government wants. The cognitive dissonance is amazing.

Welcome to Russia!

[Helgoland]

They are all pretty much the same. Some arrange their public image to look more conservative, others to look more liberal; in the end it's all PR. In the meaningful nuances they are all the same (just like the factions that support them, IMO)

John XXIII would be a counterexample.

[Phmcw]

Piliticians got us into that mess, do you expect them to be even a little competent at getting us out?


And speaking about France, it's not new that French politicians speak like democrats and act like despots.

[mainiac]

And... STRIKE THREE. Where did I state that, exactly?

And that's STRIKE THREE of you being full of yourself!

So we're getting into that weird situation, were everyone is mandated to use its freedom of speech to say what the government wants. The cognitive dissonance is amazing.

That's kind of to be expected after a big terrorist attack.  I'd guess it will take about six months to fade to a low level background.

[Darvi]

And... STRIKE THREE. Where did I state that, exactly?

And that's STRIKE THREE of you being full of yourself!

So uh about that weather...

[Loud Whispers]

Inb4 thread is ded; calm down folks.

[GreatJustice]

A disproportionate amount of people only support freedom of speech when they don't find that speech offensive, which is precisely the kind of speech that needs defending. I sincerely doubt the people marching in support of Hebdo would consider letting Holocaust deniers and racists be free to say what they want, which is basically what free speech comes down to. To quote Mencken,

The trouble with fighting for human freedom is that one spends most of one's time defending scoundrels. For it is against scoundrels that oppressive laws are first aimed, and oppression must be stopped at the beginning if it is to be stopped at all.

[Baffler]

It's already illegal in France to "offend the dignity of the Republic" by insulting her flag, anthem, or civil servants. Present drugs in a positive light and "inciting their consumption" is also illegal. Charlie Hebdo has been fined tens of thousands of Euros for doing so, as it happens. It's also illegal to say bad things about minorities, and it's, you guessed it, illegal to deny the holocaust or engage in "xenophobic activities." Sounds like speech is already pretty free too me.

[Sheb]

Okay, this is getting ridiculous, a 14-years old French girl was just charged with "defending terrorism" (Which I'll remind you can carry a prison sentence of up to 5 years) for shouting "We're the sisters of Kouachi, we'll go get the Kalashs" on a tram".

[Loud Whispers]

Pretty much GJ. One cannot defend freedom of speech without first being called some supporter of misogynistic racist extremist pedophilia. Which goes back to the whole statement =/= statement of support thing. It is frustrating when one assumes you must support some ill cause when your cause is to defend their right to express their illness.

Reading over my old big walls of text in the progressive thread about free speech is interesting, especially since it all happened 2 years before the Hebdo killings polarized everyone one way or the other. I am somewhat pleased that my views on free speech have remained so damn consistent, though my use of metaphors has certainly decreased.

'Forcibly silencing those who you do not like - even if what they say is hurtful is reducing them to a spine without a head, a clockwork orange who is not living at all. Constricting free speech is the means to making the python your master.'

Hahaha, I don't know whether that's a brilliant or horrendous metaphor. Probably both. I can tell just how tired I was when I wrote most of that too, it might be worth salvaging the best of what I argued into a much more clarified, reasoned and coherent post to dump on this thread.

Freedom of expression transcends everything that is morally accepted by any given society, what would be a harmless cartoon to one society could be the gravest of insults to another - that is its purpose, to allow people to hold their own opinions without interference from others.

Harmless cartoons indeed...