Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

A

A

A

A

A

A

A

A

[aenri]

...

"mentally retarded" what is this, I don't even...

Here, something for you.

Prison is not punishment, but rehabilitation. If you're putting people in prison to punish them, then you're doing it wrong.

Prison sentence is punishment, deterrent, preventative measure and rehabilitation all-in-one. But as ebbor says below, it isn't prison sentence, so I was misled by the article.

So first of, let me remove some misconceptions.

1) This person is not imprisoned. He's clinically insane, and thus has been interned for his own safety and that of others. Unfortunately, due to budgeting issues, prisons are considered proper psychiatric interning facilities. Interment takes until the person is no longer a threat to society.

2) This person is not responsible for his deeds. He did not get a life sentence, and in fact, was not prosecuted for his crimes. Once you're considered "Ontoerekeningsvatbaar", you're no longer considered responsible for any of the acts committed during said psychic episode. I think it's known as the insanity defense or something.

3) The Belgian governement is legally required to provide appropriate treatment.

Okay, the article that has been linked specifically talked about conviction - that means, if my English is not failing, a prosecution and a guilty verdict. Don't really know anything about Belgian law, so I can only interpolate from what law I know. Here we also don't sentence insane people, the court gives them special protective measures (one of which is indefinite internment in facility).
My first impression was that he was found responsible for the crimes, but did them because of some underlying cause. So that was wrong.

That said, it comes down to money, probably there wasn't enough allocated for department of justice to build up a interment facility for insane people, but the Belgian lawmakers were too overzealous and added such legal requirement for government to penal code. The lesson from this is, just because you legislate something, doesn't mean it is fulfillable in practice.

[scriver]

But if he's not a prisoner, on what basis is it illegal to send him to the Netherlands for treatment?

Because he's still a prisoner, just not a prisoner prisoner, I'd assume. He's still in the legal system.

And yeah, for reference when it comes to prison/punishment goals:  compare the US and the Scandinavian countries. Scandinavia generally have a much lower recidivism rate, and our prisons are very... Unharsh.

[Sheb]

What really make me queasy about this case is that his suffering, while certainly real, is entirely due to the lack of proper treatment and the frankly horrible prison conditions.

[smeeprocket]

...

"mentally retarded" what is this, I don't even...

Here, something for you.

Prison is not punishment, but rehabilitation. If you're putting people in prison to punish them, then you're doing it wrong.

Prison sentence is punishment, deterrent, preventative measure and rehabilitation all-in-one. But as ebbor says below, it isn't prison sentence, so I was misled by the article.

So first of, let me remove some misconceptions.

1) This person is not imprisoned. He's clinically insane, and thus has been interned for his own safety and that of others. Unfortunately, due to budgeting issues, prisons are considered proper psychiatric interning facilities. Interment takes until the person is no longer a threat to society.

2) This person is not responsible for his deeds. He did not get a life sentence, and in fact, was not prosecuted for his crimes. Once you're considered "Ontoerekeningsvatbaar", you're no longer considered responsible for any of the acts committed during said psychic episode. I think it's known as the insanity defense or something.

3) The Belgian governement is legally required to provide appropriate treatment.

Okay, the article that has been linked specifically talked about conviction - that means, if my English is not failing, a prosecution and a guilty verdict. Don't really know anything about Belgian law, so I can only interpolate from what law I know. Here we also don't sentence insane people, the court gives them special protective measures (one of which is indefinite internment in facility).
My first impression was that he was found responsible for the crimes, but did them because of some underlying cause. So that was wrong.

That said, it comes down to money, probably there wasn't enough allocated for department of justice to build up a interment facility for insane people, but the Belgian lawmakers were too overzealous and added such legal requirement for government to penal code. The lesson from this is, just because you legislate something, doesn't mean it is fulfillable in practice.

he is mentally ill, not mentally challenged (retarded is such a derogatory term) There is a difference, though both face a lot of stigma.

[miauw62]

I'm trying to say that Belgium has been towing the line between "minimalist facilities and activity" and "does not exist as a state entity" for a while now.

Our government is plenty active, but there's a lot of budget issues, so basically all parts of the government have to do with less money.
There's still a lot of active public buildings and services.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

I'm trying to say that Belgium has been towing the line between "minimalist facilities and activity" and "does not exist as a state entity" for a while now.

Our government is plenty active, but there's a lot of budget issues, so basically all parts of the government have to do with less money.
There's still a lot of active public buildings and services.

I know, but what the government is doing is the equivalent of running on fumes without trying to refuel. If it hits any sharp crisis point, things will go to shit fast, I guarantee it.

[Sheb]

Belgium is too amorphous to break up when encountering a sharp point.

[aenri]

But if he's not a prisoner, on what basis is it illegal to send him to the Netherlands for treatment?

Because he's still a prisoner, just not a prisoner prisoner, I'd assume. He's still in the legal system.

And yeah, for reference when it comes to prison/punishment goals:  compare the US and the Scandinavian countries. Scandinavia generally have a much lower recidivism rate, and our prisons are very... Unharsh.

And for another reference in recidivism rate - compare US and Russia. Russia has much much lower rate than USA and their prison system is much harsher. There isn't really any measurable correlation between prison and legal systems and recidivism rate.

[smeeprocket]

But if he's not a prisoner, on what basis is it illegal to send him to the Netherlands for treatment?

Because he's still a prisoner, just not a prisoner prisoner, I'd assume. He's still in the legal system.

And yeah, for reference when it comes to prison/punishment goals:  compare the US and the Scandinavian countries. Scandinavia generally have a much lower recidivism rate, and our prisons are very... Unharsh.

And for another reference in recidivism rate - compare US and Russia. Russia has much much lower rate than USA and their prison system is much harsher. There isn't really any measurable correlation between prison and legal systems and recidivism rate.

ahh but russia imprisons significantly less people.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_incarceration_rate#United_States

[Sheb]

Well, they're the second-largest incarcerator.

[smeeprocket]

I thought this was interesting and I wonder if it holds up in other examples

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2013/feb/25/norwegian-prison-inmates-treated-like-people

[aenri]

ahh but russia imprisons significantly less people.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_incarceration_rate#United_States

Well, OK, is that an agreement that we cannot compare (there isn't measurable correlation) prison/legal systems and recidivism rates between countries?

[Sheb]

I remember reading that. My main problem with that is that the inmates that gets into that island are those that already show a will to reinsert themselves into society. You cannot compare the reoffending rate of that prison to that of entire prison system.

[smeeprocket]

ahh but russia imprisons significantly less people.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_incarceration_rate#United_States

Well, OK, is that an agreement that we cannot compare (there isn't measurable correlation) prison/legal systems and recidivism rates between countries?

I found a link but it has individual links for each country here: http://www3.unil.ch/wpmu/space/publications/recidivism-studies/

[Dutchling]

EU could launch Russian-language European TV channel to combat 'aggressive' Russian propaganda.

I was wondering what people here think about this.