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[10ebbor10]

As you said, it's not legal. I think it, ironically, infringes with some human rights clausule of one kind or another.

MSH, what are you trying to say?

He's referring to the 15-50% overcrowding of the Belgian prison system.

[smeeprocket]

ugh. There a LOT of mentally ill people in prison here in america too. People feel like putting them in an institution is letting them off easy and they need to be properly punished. Personally, I'd prefer prison, but if you are sick, treatment needs to be possible.

There's so much stigma and a general lack of concern for mental illness. It's just bullshit.

[Sheb]

Oh, don't worry, in Belgium it's not that we want them punished, it's just that we're really not into that whole "paying for decent care" thing.

[aenri]

I think this might be worth discussing.

Link

Basically, man convicted for murder/rape has been imprisoned for 30 years. He suffers from severe mental issues, and can not get adjusted psychical treatment. (No resources/facilities) 

Since, it's unlikely that he'll ever be released without said treatment(and in fact, he doesn't want to, as he considers himself a threat), he has requested euthanasia, a request which has been granted and will be executed next sunday.

He done it, he accepted the life imprisonment and now he wants to commit suicide. The punishment part in prison sentence isn't there just for show, you know. Doesn't really matter if he is mentally retarded or not, I would even posit that no sane man could murder/rape another human being without some mental deficiencies. As for unavailability of treatment - prisons are not hospitals and hospitals are not prison, that is simple fact.

As for euthanasia, the man has free will and who am I to stop him from committing suicide or why should the government stop him.

[smeeprocket]

I think this might be worth discussing.

Link

Basically, man convicted for murder/rape has been imprisoned for 30 years. He suffers from severe mental issues, and can not get adjusted psychical treatment. (No resources/facilities) 

Since, it's unlikely that he'll ever be released without said treatment(and in fact, he doesn't want to, as he considers himself a threat), he has requested euthanasia, a request which has been granted and will be executed next sunday.

He done it, he accepted the life imprisonment and now he wants to commit suicide. The punishment part in prison sentence isn't there just for show, you know. Doesn't really matter if he is mentally retarded or not, I would even posit that no sane man could murder/rape another human being without some mental deficiencies. As for unavailability of treatment - prisons are not hospitals and hospitals are not prison, that is simple fact.

As for euthanasia, the man has free will and who am I to stop him from committing suicide or why should the government stop him.

"mentally retarded" what is this, I don't even...

[smeeprocket]

I think this might be worth discussing.

Link

Basically, man convicted for murder/rape has been imprisoned for 30 years. He suffers from severe mental issues, and can not get adjusted psychical treatment. (No resources/facilities) 

Since, it's unlikely that he'll ever be released without said treatment(and in fact, he doesn't want to, as he considers himself a threat), he has requested euthanasia, a request which has been granted and will be executed next sunday.

He done it, he accepted the life imprisonment and now he wants to commit suicide. The punishment part in prison sentence isn't there just for show, you know. Doesn't really matter if he is mentally retarded or not, I would even posit that no sane man could murder/rape another human being without some mental deficiencies. As for unavailability of treatment - prisons are not hospitals and hospitals are not prison, that is simple fact.

As for euthanasia, the man has free will and who am I to stop him from committing suicide or why should the government stop him.

Prison is not punishment, but rehabilitation. If you're putting people in prison to punish them, then you're doing it wrong.

one would think that. In the US, it seems to be all about punishment.

[10ebbor10]

So first of, let me remove some misconceptions.

1) This person is not imprisoned. He's clinically insane, and thus has been interned for his own safety and that of others. Unfortunately, due to budgeting issues, prisons are considered proper psychiatric interning facilities. Interment takes until the person is no longer a threat to society.

2) This person is not responsible for his deeds. He did not get a life sentence, and in fact, was not prosecuted for his crimes. Once you're considered "Ontoerekeningsvatbaar", you're no longer considered responsible for any of the acts committed during said psychic episode. I think it's known as the insanity defense or something.

3) The Belgian governement is legally required to provide appropriate treatment.

[Vilanat]

I think this might be worth discussing.

Link

Basically, man convicted for murder/rape has been imprisoned for 30 years. He suffers from severe mental issues, and can not get adjusted psychical treatment. (No resources/facilities) 

Since, it's unlikely that he'll ever be released without said treatment(and in fact, he doesn't want to, as he considers himself a threat), he has requested euthanasia, a request which has been granted and will be executed next sunday.

He done it, he accepted the life imprisonment and now he wants to commit suicide. The punishment part in prison sentence isn't there just for show, you know. Doesn't really matter if he is mentally retarded or not, I would even posit that no sane man could murder/rape another human being without some mental deficiencies. As for unavailability of treatment - prisons are not hospitals and hospitals are not prison, that is simple fact.

As for euthanasia, the man has free will and who am I to stop him from committing suicide or why should the government stop him.

Prison is not punishment, but rehabilitation. If you're putting people in prison to punish them, then you're doing it wrong.

Its also about removing a threat from society and scaring other people from committing crimes in the future.

I want to see the study that says people will likely commit less crimes if they knew they wouldn't get punished for it.

Also, rehabilitation is far less effective when you remove criminal people from society and herd them together, which further suggests that if a man is sent to prison, he is sent for a punishment and removal from society and not rehabilitation.

[10ebbor10]

None of which applies in this case, since we're talking about a clinically insane person.

[WarRoot]

2) This person is not responsible for his deeds. He did not get a life sentence, and in fact, was not prosecuted for his crimes. Once you're considered "Ontoerekeningsvatbaar", you're no longer considered responsible for any of the acts committed during said psychic episode. I think it's known as the insanity defense or something.

But if he's not responsible for his deeds then how can his request for euthanasia be considered valid?

[MetalSlimeHunt]

2) This person is not responsible for his deeds. He did not get a life sentence, and in fact, was not prosecuted for his crimes. Once you're considered "Ontoerekeningsvatbaar", you're no longer considered responsible for any of the acts committed during said psychic episode. I think it's known as the insanity defense or something.

But if he's not responsible for his deeds then how can his request for euthanasia be considered valid?

Because the basis of his euthanasia is a medical condition that lowers his quality of life (insanity) and is effectively permanent (30 years of no treatment or progress). It's not all that different from any other medical euthanasia, except that with the cancer patients the doctors don't stand by and do nothing because they aren't allowed to.

[smeeprocket]

I think this might be worth discussing.

Link

Basically, man convicted for murder/rape has been imprisoned for 30 years. He suffers from severe mental issues, and can not get adjusted psychical treatment. (No resources/facilities) 

Since, it's unlikely that he'll ever be released without said treatment(and in fact, he doesn't want to, as he considers himself a threat), he has requested euthanasia, a request which has been granted and will be executed next sunday.

He done it, he accepted the life imprisonment and now he wants to commit suicide. The punishment part in prison sentence isn't there just for show, you know. Doesn't really matter if he is mentally retarded or not, I would even posit that no sane man could murder/rape another human being without some mental deficiencies. As for unavailability of treatment - prisons are not hospitals and hospitals are not prison, that is simple fact.

As for euthanasia, the man has free will and who am I to stop him from committing suicide or why should the government stop him.

Prison is not punishment, but rehabilitation. If you're putting people in prison to punish them, then you're doing it wrong.

Its also about removing a threat from society and scaring other people from committing crimes in the future.

I want to see the study that says people will likely commit less crimes if they knew they wouldn't get punished for it.

Also, rehabilitation is far less effective when you remove criminal people from society and herd them together, which further suggests that if a man is sent to prison, he is sent for a punishment and removal from society and not rehabilitation.

I can find you studies showing you the high rate of recidivism in america and how the death penalty sucks as a deterrent. I am not sure if I can hunt down a deterrent study for just prison, since, at least in america, all crimes are usually punished with prison, and not rehabilitation. Maybe a comparative study on recidivism in the US and less punishment oriented countries.

Prison is a poor deterrent, because most people that commit the kind of crimes that get long prison sentences (i.e. not white collar crimes) are thinking in the moment, not about the future consequences.

Plus, if imprisonment actually worked, crime would be way lower in the US. We jail more people than anybody by far, you'd think it would be next to non-existent here.

[LordSlowpoke]

your problem is that you turned prisons into an industry

and it's more of an ameripol thing anyway

[smeeprocket]

your problem is that you turned prisons into an industry

and it's more of an ameripol thing anyway

Some prisons are privatized (which is screwed up) but not most of them. But I would say America is a prime example of priosns as punishment, and the rest of the world would be wise to see the folly in that concept based on what we have done to our society.

[Sheb]

But if he's not a prisoner, on what basis is it illegal to send him to the Netherlands for treatment?