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Author Topic: Sheb's European Megathread: Remove Feta!  (Read 1785608 times)

Sheb

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #13320 on: December 04, 2014, 06:16:15 am »

10ebbor10: We managed to have a decent energy policy back in the days when we built all those power plants, and we were no dictatorship either. It's just that no one wants a decent energy policy anymore: people are scared of nuclear, and all other energy sources are actually bad. There simply is no energy solution the electorate will like.
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Quote from: Paul-Henry Spaak
Europe consists only of small countries, some of which know it and some of which don’t yet.

LordSlowpoke

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #13321 on: December 04, 2014, 06:20:13 am »

in that case, just remove the electorate?

this is not a difficult concept
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LordSlowpoke

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #13322 on: December 04, 2014, 06:21:09 am »

hello i am a doublepost have a good day
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Helgoland

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #13323 on: December 04, 2014, 07:55:02 am »

in that case, just remove the electorate?
Quote
Nach dem Aufstand des 17. Juni
Ließ der Sekretär des Schriftstellerverbands
In der Stalinallee Flugblätter verteilen
Auf denen zu lesen war, daß das Volk
Das Vertrauen der Regierung verscherzt habe
Und es nur durch verdoppelte Arbeit
Zurückerobern könne. Wäre es da
Nicht doch einfacher, die Regierung
Löste das Volk auf und
Wählte ein anderes?
"After the uprising on the 17th of June
The Secretary of the Writers' association
Had leaflets distributed in Stalin Alley
On which it could be read that the people
Had lost the trust of the government
And only by doubling their work
They could gain it again. Would it not be
Much simpler if the government
Dissolved the people
And elected another one?"

-Bert Brecht, Die Lösung
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Arguably he's already a progressive, just one in the style of an enlightened Kaiser.
I'm going to do the smart thing here and disengage. This isn't a hill I paticularly care to die on.

Phmcw

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #13324 on: December 04, 2014, 09:03:25 am »

I'm not sure what to think of energy policies anymore : I've been showered with contradictory information and none of it make sense.
French are preventing exess renewable energy form being imported from spain (renewable energy would then seems less expensive) and Germany claim the same. A quick cost analysis seems to suggest that too (but I may have failed it).

But then, how the fuck were nuclear powerplant profitable? Or can renewable be less expensive than old fossil fuel?

I'm so lost...
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In bug news, the zombies in a necromancer's tower became suspicious after the necromancer failed to age and he fled into the hills.

mainiac

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #13325 on: December 04, 2014, 10:58:58 am »

No, but the fact that mainiac's reaction is so negative is a nice illustration of that quote. Neither me nor Helgoland found it negative.

Well my reaction would probably be less negative if Germany weren't thinking everything is A-OK in the middle of a massive crisis of which they are the primary cause.  You guys seem to think that as long as you are in the eye of the storm it doesn't matter that everything is going to hell.  It's not nice seeing a leader who is passive as she does more damage to the world then any German since well... y'know.
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Ancient Babylonian god of RAEG
--------------
[CAN_INTERNET]
[PREFSTRING:google]
"Don't tell me what you value. Show me your budget and I will tell you what you value"
« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
mainiac is always a little sarcastic, at least.

10ebbor10

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #13326 on: December 04, 2014, 12:01:24 pm »

I'm not sure what to think of energy policies anymore : I've been showered with contradictory information and none of it make sense.
French are preventing exess renewable energy form being imported from spain (renewable energy would then seems less expensive) and Germany claim the same.
Any source on this. Because, while I heard the story before, I have found no concrete sources of this.

Quote
A quick cost analysis seems to suggest that too (but I may have failed it).
A cost analysis suggests what?

Quote
But then, how the fuck were nuclear powerplant profitable? Or can renewable be less expensive than old fossil fuel?

I'm so lost...
And I'm lost in your argument. An important part of it's seems missing


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Erkki

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #13327 on: December 04, 2014, 12:14:22 pm »


Quote
A quick cost analysis seems to suggest that too (but I may have failed it).
A cost analysis suggests what?

I think he means nuclear energy being cost efficient. It is - nuclear power plants are super expensive but for the fuel cost, they produce a lot of energy and since there is a lot of production in a single plant, less money goes into building the infra and energy network to the production itself. But one of the problems is that for that efficiency to work the power plants need to run basically at 100% power all the time, so everyone is still stuck with having to use gas/lng/oil/coal/water in significant amounts for all the adjustments and the times when that nuke plant is going through maintenance.
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Sergarr

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10ebbor10

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #13329 on: December 04, 2014, 12:54:54 pm »

In the hope of providing an explanation.

There are multiple types of cost relevant to this issue. First of, is the marginal cost. Basically, the marginal cost is the cost of electricity on the energy market, for which it is more economical for a power plant to shut down, than to operate. For non-subsidized renewable, the marginal cost is (just above) zero. For subsidized renewable, it is somewhere below zero, depending on the subsidy involved. For large nuclear and coal units, especially for models not build/prepared for load-following, the marginal cost can also be below zero, as cutting output then increasing it again would be more expensive.

Do note that an installation being able to provide energy at it's marginal cost doesn't mean that it's profitable. It just the point at which the finances look best and profits are maximized or losses are minimized. This is especially a problem for renewable power and nuclear, since (most of) their the investment is entirely up-front. If the electricity price isn't high enough during the lifetime of the plant, then the investement might never be recovered. Hence, feed-in subsidies.

The other relevant cost is lifecycle cost. This is a relatively simple system, where one looks at all the energy produced, looks at all the costs incurred, and thus calculates a cost per kwh. This is the average price the power plant needs to be profitable. Lifecycle costs vary heavily depending on design and location of a power plant, and some other factors. In practice, all power plant technologies (except solar PV) tend to be within the same range.

https://web.archive.org/web/20140419062707/http://report.mitigation2014.org/drafts/final-draft-postplenary/ipcc_wg3_ar5_final-draft_postplenary_annex-iii.pdf

Now, there are 2 more important costs, relevant specifically to nuclear power and renewables.

First, is the Weighted Average Cost of Capital. Basically, how much interest and stuff you need to pay on your loans to be able to build something. For nuclear, this is the dominant aspect in price, accounting for about half of the lifecycle costs. Hence why a fast turn-over, as in China, results in low costs, and a prolonged construction (Finland) results in extremely high costs. This is also why most nuclear power plants have had governmental loan support.

For renewables, an important though oft ignored costs is the grid cost. This indirect cost, is the cost the useage of intermittent renewable energy inflicts on the grid. Most of the time, this isn't paid for by the renewable energy producers, but either by the grid operator (balancing payments) or by the owner of the non-profitable gas plants that provide energy when the wind is blowing. Note that nuclear and coal also have grid costs, these tend to be much smaller. Much discussion can be had about the size of these grid-level costs, or even their existence, but it remains a problem to be dealt with, and one not appropriately handled by the way the energy market works in many countries.

Quote
A quick cost analysis seems to suggest that too (but I may have failed it).
A cost analysis suggests what?
I think he means nuclear energy being cost efficient. It is - nuclear power plants are super expensive but for the fuel cost, they produce a lot of energy and since there is a lot of production in a single plant, less money goes into building the infra and energy network to the production itself. But one of the problems is that for that efficiency to work the power plants need to run basically at 100% power all the time, so everyone is still stuck with having to use gas/lng/oil/coal/water in significant amounts for all the adjustments and the times when that nuke plant is going through maintenance.
Well, not actually. A nuclear powerplant can be economically ran in a cost-following modus. In France, that is routinely done. Canada's Candu reactors even include a steam bypass system, in which the reactor is mostly decoupled from the generator, allowing them to vary power between 0.7-100% and technically making them the most versatile generation units on the entire generation grid.
For pratical purposes, that system isn't used that much though.
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Helgoland

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #13330 on: December 04, 2014, 12:58:48 pm »

No, but the fact that mainiac's reaction is so negative is a nice illustration of that quote. Neither me nor Helgoland found it negative.

Well my reaction would probably be less negative if Germany weren't thinking everything is A-OK in the middle of a massive crisis of which they are the primary cause.  You guys seem to think that as long as you are in the eye of the storm it doesn't matter that everything is going to hell.  It's not nice seeing a leader who is passive as she does more damage to the world then any German since well... y'know.
The primary cause? In what universe?
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The Bay12 postcard club
Arguably he's already a progressive, just one in the style of an enlightened Kaiser.
I'm going to do the smart thing here and disengage. This isn't a hill I paticularly care to die on.

Erkki

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #13331 on: December 04, 2014, 01:15:26 pm »

I think he means nuclear energy being cost efficient. It is - nuclear power plants are super expensive but for the fuel cost, they produce a lot of energy and since there is a lot of production in a single plant, less money goes into building the infra and energy network to the production itself. But one of the problems is that for that efficiency to work the power plants need to run basically at 100% power all the time, so everyone is still stuck with having to use gas/lng/oil/coal/water in significant amounts for all the adjustments and the times when that nuke plant is going through maintenance.
[/quote]
Well, not actually. A nuclear powerplant can be economically ran in a cost-following modus. In France, that is routinely done. Canada's Candu reactors even include a steam bypass system, in which the reactor is mostly decoupled from the generator, allowing them to vary power between 0.7-100% and technically making them the most versatile generation units on the entire generation grid.
For pratical purposes, that system isn't used that much though.
[/quote]

Aye, but the efficiency(which one of the major good parts about nuclear energy) advantage falls if the power output is lowered and you may as well do the adjustments with other energy types which is what is done in a lot of places where those are available. Many nuke power plants even cant power up and down quick enough so they are just ran at 100% instead for best profits.

I wanted to show some cool graphs on electrical energy production by each energy source on hour-by-hour basis but I cant find any. Google search only gives ones on all production or annual ones. I need to dig deeper in my saved lecture materials.
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Sheb

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #13332 on: December 04, 2014, 01:43:45 pm »

Helgoland: not the primary as in the first cause, but primary as in the main cause of the extent of the crisis, yeah. Germany was spared most of Merkel's austerity fetish because she has to answer to German voters, unlike other countries.
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Quote from: Paul-Henry Spaak
Europe consists only of small countries, some of which know it and some of which don’t yet.

Helgoland

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #13333 on: December 04, 2014, 02:10:29 pm »

The other countries were perfectly free to follow another course - without German money, of course. Why do you think did they choose this path instead of another?
The easy answer is of course that Germany should have given money anyway. But that's demanding that Germany should pay without receiving control in return, and Merkel would've been tarred and feathered - rightly so! - for that.
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The Bay12 postcard club
Arguably he's already a progressive, just one in the style of an enlightened Kaiser.
I'm going to do the smart thing here and disengage. This isn't a hill I paticularly care to die on.

10ebbor10

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #13334 on: December 04, 2014, 02:18:27 pm »

I'm pretty sure Mainiac is referring to the other looming, economical crisis. Ie, German trade surplus excess, the lackluster recovery and threatening deflation.

Or not, I dunno.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2014, 02:34:22 pm by 10ebbor10 »
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