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Author Topic: Sheb's European Megathread: Remove Feta!  (Read 1781113 times)

Reelya

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #12750 on: November 10, 2014, 04:26:48 pm »

Instant run-off elections still suffer from that. You need multi-member electorates or transferable vote systems (basically leftover votes count to another candidate) to avoid any possibility of gerrmandering.

As long as you elect just one candidate per region then the leftover votes are wasted and the system can be rigged by reshaping the electoral areas - cram all the voters for 1 party into one area, that area always elects that party with 100% of the vote and the other party magically wins every other seat.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2014, 04:28:21 pm by Reelya »
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smjjames

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #12751 on: November 10, 2014, 04:32:58 pm »

One candidate per region? It doesn't work like that, there's the incumbent and the challenger (and rarely a third candidate). Unless I'm misunderstanding what you mean.

I don't see that as being feaseable to have two representatives because, well, do the math.
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Reelya

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #12752 on: November 10, 2014, 04:39:37 pm »

No, you elect one candidate out of the field. I did say "elect" not "vote for". Any system where your choosing 1 person to win can be rigged with Gerrymandering:

Say you have 10 regions and 2 parties. Each party gets ~50% of the vote in each region, so on average each party should get 5 congressmen elected. But, say one party redraws the boundaries so that 1 region has 100% of a particular party and the other 9 regions are all 55% vs 45%. Now, that party wins 9/10 seats and the other party gets a landslide victory of exactly 1 seat.

Removing "first past the post" voting doesn't fix that flaw. You need to e.g. make electoral regions elect 3 or more people to parliament. As in 3 or more actual winners.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2014, 04:44:33 pm by Reelya »
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Erkki

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #12753 on: November 10, 2014, 04:41:28 pm »

Well it is known that Churchill really hated communism, so him advocating the West to use any advantage possible to defeat it is not surprising.

Also Sir Winston got voted out of office in an election(to Stalin's, apparently genuine, surprise). That doesnt happen with the Russian leaders...
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Sergarr

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #12754 on: November 10, 2014, 04:45:55 pm »

Well it is known that Churchill really hated communism, so him advocating the West to use any advantage possible to defeat it is not surprising.

Also Sir Winston got voted out of office in an election(to Stalin's, apparently genuine, surprise). That doesnt happen with the Russian leaders...
But look at how many leaders were ousted by a coup/revolution!
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smjjames

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #12755 on: November 10, 2014, 04:47:02 pm »

@reelya: with the current district layout, that would result in over a thousand representatives. I have no idea if the House even HAS that much space available.
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Graknorke

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #12756 on: November 10, 2014, 04:48:24 pm »

Removing "first past the post" voting doesn't fix that flaw. You need to e.g. make electoral regions elect 3 or more people to parliament. As in 3 or more actual winners.
Or the voting could just be proportional. But it's not like that will ever happen.
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Sheb

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #12757 on: November 10, 2014, 05:04:07 pm »

Yeah, proportional voting completely solve the problem. Plus, you can be sure that at least one of 'your' congressperson is from the party you support.
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BlindKitty

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #12758 on: November 11, 2014, 02:55:17 am »

Interestingly, there is a quickly growing movement in Poland that states that proportional voting is one of our biggest problems in politics; something like a million people signed the proposition of referendum to move to one-seat electoral regions. Which, of course, completely solve all the problems. :P
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Sheb

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #12759 on: November 11, 2014, 05:31:00 am »

What are the problems they want to address?
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Quote from: Paul-Henry Spaak
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Helgoland

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #12760 on: November 11, 2014, 06:02:45 am »

Lack of political drama? :P
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Sheb

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #12761 on: November 11, 2014, 07:09:13 am »

Well, I can see two thingd that could be seen as downside: a) It can cause a lot of different parties to get into government, making creating a working majority harder. Since governments are made of large coalition, it can also give the impression that the policies are always going to be more or less the same (since they will be the results of compromise among a bunch of parties), giving some people the impression that voting doesn't matter.

And b) It makes it less clear which representative is "your" representative, so theoretically make elected representative care less about their district's issues.
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Helgoland

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #12762 on: November 11, 2014, 07:26:38 am »

1) can be fixed by a quorum a la Germany: Your party gets less than five percent of the total vote, and it has to stay out.
2) can be fixed by a mixed system a la Germany: You vote for a local candidate with your A vote and for a party with your B vote. The local representative is sent to parliament, and then additional people from the parties' lists are added to parliament until the portion of seats each party has corresponds to the portion of B votes it got in total.
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Arguably he's already a progressive, just one in the style of an enlightened Kaiser.
I'm going to do the smart thing here and disengage. This isn't a hill I paticularly care to die on.

BlindKitty

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #12763 on: November 11, 2014, 08:36:01 am »

Yeah, generally the problem (as perceived by most of the Poles, I think, but this is anecdotal evidence) is that party-based system doesn't really work all that well. We have two major parties and about three minor ones that stand any chance in elections (we have 5% quorum, if you get less that that, you don't get into parliament; it's a little bit more complicated than that, because you need to get 3% to get state funding, and 7% instead of 5% if you start as a coalition, instead of a single party, but the general idea stays). And I would guess that about 60% voters, if not more, would be happy to vote for someone/something that is not any of those five parties. See, the problem with parties is that they give you the whole package, instead of something more granular (for example, if you are pro-gay marriage, you also have to be pro-high taxes, because there is only one party that can represent you - this is not the actual example, but you get my drift), AND the fact that often people the party you like give you aren't the people you like. See, due to fact that some of the voting regions are very strongly aligned to one of the parties, those parties like to drop no-name candidates there, knowing that they will get voted for no matter what, and drop the best known MPs in the regions where they have smaller chances, to get some votes there. Or do other shenanigans. Also, if you vote for a guy you like, but he is further down the list, someone else will probably take the spot, being higher up.

Also, Sheb's b) is also quite a problem, as our MPs either don't care at all for 'their' region (especially if they've been dropped there by their party due to having a well known last name), or care for it a little much, hurting everybody else in the process.

And one more problem - as most of our political parties are led by very strong alpha males, they are quite dictatorial in their inner working, which leads to a situation where you can vote for a person who seems to think like you, only for him to vote differently due to party discipline and stuff. And it is hard to punish him by voting for someone else, because they all have the very same problem; they have their hands tied by the party...

---

I have my own answer to those problems, actually, and it requires not changing the ordination and voting stuff, but the major reworking of parliament itself.

Instead of one humongous and homogeneous Sejm/Congress/Bundestag/what-have-you (and I disregard second part that happens to exists here and there, as it doesn't wield too much power usually) we need to have one smaller cabinet per area of interest (like, treasury, agriculture, industry, stuff like that), of about ten people (preferably 11, to make ties less probable), and special tax cabinet and one special 'superior' cabinet, constructed from person with highest vote turnover from each of the cabinets, which would be responsible for directing cases to a right cabinet, whenever ambiguity arises. Every cabinet has only one, country-wide list, and every person votes for one representative in each cabinet. Eleven people from each list get their seats, and they are voting only on the laws that are in their area of interest. To pass a law, it must be agreed upon in each cabinet that it is voted on, so more comprehensive laws usually need to pass through multiple cabinets. And special case: anything that has to do with the taxes needs to pass through the tax cabinet. Every time a proposition would lead to increasing spending, it must point to a source of money, and if it is funded by taxes, it needs to pass through tax cabinet.
Changing Constitution would require some qualified majority in the Big Chamber, where every member of every cabinet gets one vote (so something like today).

This way you can get your representative in every field, even if no party has a proposition that suits you.

Possible modification: everybody with more than 1% of votes get in, but every person in cabinet has a weight to their vote, and this weight is equal to the percentage of the voters that voted for that person.
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Phmcw

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #12764 on: November 11, 2014, 08:40:59 am »

I thought long and hard about that kind of problem and here's what I came up with :

Varied issues need varied solution. I think that it's not only important to have several decision layers (town, region, country, UE) it's also important to have several channels (syndicates, parties, referundum, constitution, ....)  and efficient regulatory bodies. I do think that  direct referundum is underused and should have an heavyer weight in lawmaking, in particular, every laws should be overtunrable by a refferundum.
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