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[Helgoland]

What about the various volunteer batallions? At least that's what I was thinking of when reading that headline.

[Descan]

Uhm, you are aware that a huge problem with laws like that, Sergarr, is that the more open-ended they are, the more people "break" them, so if you have someone you don't like, you can just arrest them and have this simple, open law that you can conveniently slap on them.

~That's~ why laws about "Anything you say online" are bad, not because everyone will be arrested over them, but because ~anyone~ can be arrested over them, you just have to piss them off just enough to make you worth the effort...

[BlindKitty]

Hell, I've read the article, even though I really don't have time for such stuff now, and I only have two things to say: first, Radek Sikorski (side mention: Radek is 'Little Radosław', a diminutive term not usually used by anybody more than 12 years of age, unless in close circle of friends) is painted in... a little too good light. Second: the book they write about is not a historical fantasy novel, but a what-if semi-historical book about what could Poland to avoid being double-f***** in 1939.
Also, Sergarr, there are quite a few people in Poland that consider allying with Nazi Germany to fight Soviet Union reasonable. Not because Nazi Germany wasn't bad, but because Soviet Union was even worse.

[Sheb]

Also, Sikorski isn't FM anymore because Tusk got promoted to the council and Carl Bildt's party lost an election. So nothing to do with their competence as foreign ministers.

[Sergarr]

Uhm, you are aware that a huge problem with laws like that, Sergarr, is that the more open-ended they are, the more people "break" them, so if you have someone you don't like, you can just arrest them and have this simple, open law that you can conveniently slap on them.

~That's~ why laws about "Anything you say online" are bad, not because everyone will be arrested over them, but because ~anyone~ can be arrested over them, you just have to piss them off just enough to make you worth the effort...

If a government want you in jail, it will get you there. Laws or no laws, it doesn't matter.

[Mictlantecuhtli]

If a government want you in jail, it will get you there. Laws or no laws, it doesn't matter.

Well, in states like Russia this is true.

[LordSlowpoke]

If a government want you in jail, it will get you there. Laws or no laws, it doesn't matter.

Well, in states like Russia this is true.

true everywhere

for an example hitting close to home, take a look at pretty much any post-9/11 protest movement outside first amendment zones

[Helgoland]

first amendment zones

You mean all of Europe?

[LordSlowpoke]

first amendment zones

You mean all of Europe?

i were trying to hit in a more ameripol direction, but yeah, europe is notably better off on the "not being thrown into vans and imprisoned just because" front

over here you'd mooostly see it down in the southern countries and not in all of them either

greece comes to mind

does anyone know what's going on in there anyway

[Dutchling]

Let's not speak of Greece.

It's better for everyone involved.

(other than Theodoros of course)

[Sheb]

I think Sergarr is a nice example of post-soviet thinking. Remember, under communism, freedom of speech, of assembly, of the press were all guaranteed in the constitution. However, anyone actually stupid enough to try to exercise those freedoms would end up in big troubles.

The result is that people would simply ignore the laws and pay attention to whatever the boss said unofficially instead. So when the leadership pass a liberticide law, no one bat an eyelid, because in the (post-)soviet mind, laws don't matter.

For the anecdote, my dad ran into this problem again and again when he was working in the post-communist workd in the early 1990's. He was working in a EU program that helped former communist countries update their environmental regulation. They would enthusiastically update their regulations, and then... nothing. They would pay no heed to the written law, waiting for unofficial instructions from the boss.

LSP: What you're talking about is a textbook example of a government abusing laws. We're not saying "durrr durr, West good, Russia bad" here (well, except for Mict maybe). We're genuinely worried by the direction Russia is taking, just as we're sad for the messy stuff most of our governments are doing.

[Owlbread]

If I had told people on doorsteps while canvasing that if Scotland voted No within a few days Westminster would have pulled us into the Third Iraq War, tried to start charging newly registered people for poll tax non-payment from the Thatcher era (using willing Labour councils in Scotland to do so - the irony), passed a law to allow fracking below our homes without our consent (awarding contracts to oil company figures and businessmen who spoke out against independence), totally broke the "vow" put forward by the Westminster leaders and Gordon Brown promising swift new powers (1 year timescale has shifted to 3 and possibly more), hijacked the devolution process to push through EVEL and shift the focus away from Scotland... now they're scrapping the European Human Rights Act in this country because, apparently, it's too expensive to give immigrants full human rights... and all this before the worst cuts of the decade start coming in just to keep the flagging British economy afloat, which will undoubtedly become all the more expensive as we piss more money up the wall by bombing Iraq to kingdom come yet again... and, as always, the families of the most powerful men in Britain will keep getting richer.

Of course, I'm sure David Cameron and the rest of the WM establishment (living, breathing bags of fleshy scum and hateful greed) will be grinning from ear to ear when the first terrorist attacks in this country following the bombings inevitably start happening and they can all say "we told you so, we were totally justified in taking you into Iraq again, now help us secure this oil flow into the Western economies". There's people in this country who can't provide food for their families and are forced to resort to USA-style food banks just to put food on their children's plates. They don't matter; far more important is to spend millions and millions of pounds on a "token gesture" of fighter jets so the Westminster establishment can ride on the USA's coat tails once again. They must be positively tumescent right now; it's like Libya but it lasts even longer.

Maybe I'd have seen a few more Yes votes, let's put it that way. I remember meeting an older, bespectacled guy and his wife with their caravan outside in a suburb outside one of my local towns. The guy told me he was voting No because he was totally fine, they had no problems and even though there were problems with Britain as a whole he was happy to "keep things ticking over". With independence his pension might be at risk. I tried to tell him about the economy post-No vote and how the worst cuts were going to come (affecting the most vulnerable) and how the Barnett Formula would inevitably be scrapped by WM, potentially costing the Scottish economy billions... I said that was the problem with just letting things "tick over" because, from beyond this year and the next things will never be the same. He shot me the filthiest of looks and I basically had to leave. Arrogant, selfish, middle class, retired, over 65. The archetypal No voter who was about as myopic in his worldview as he was physically. There was no telling that man.

But yes, such is the grim reality of being a Yes voter in post-independence referendum Scotland.

[Ukrainian Ranger]

What about the various volunteer batallions? At least that's what I was thinking of when reading that headline.

Ukrainian forces look like that:

Proper army.
 
Border guards

Various police special forces

Volunteer battalions under army command
Volunteer battalions under national guard command  (when you hear volunteer battalion it is usually one of those)

National guard units. Former internal troops. Tasked to maintain order, guard prisons and stuff like that.
Many of those are conscripts. Most of them are kept away from frontlines

Right Sector has its own command structure. Independent from everything above

There are Chechen unit and Belorussian units. But those don't exist.... Neither mainstream Ukrainian media nor any government official will ever admit their existence. Not that several hundreds matter much in conflict of that scale.

[Sergarr]

Right Sector has its own command structure. Independent from everything above

That sounds dangerous.

[Mictlantecuhtli]

We're not saying "durrr durr, West good, Russia bad" here (well, except for Mict maybe).

Let me know next time I make excuses for my country becoming a fascist soundboard.