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[XXSockXX]

Yeah, okay, I get it, as soon as Russia is the bad guy everyone else is a good guy, including the people who undermine the very principles of our supposedly free world. And if you call them out you're a "idiotic pacifist".
I don't even...

Well, Russia is undermining the very principles of our supposedly free world in Ukraine. If you just want to sit back and watch, fine.
This whole talk about "warmongering" in Germany is so silly.

One solution would have been to not poke into the bees nest of Ukraine in the first place.

Yeah, but bad EU diplomacy does in no way justify Russia's behaviour.

They're also the world's #1 invader. So...

"Tu quoque" for the umpteenth time...

If you don't go full French system of cheap/free kindergarden that won't happen. It just won't make economicl sense.

Yes, the idea of those who opposed the Betreuungsgeld was to move into that direction, but that is not happening now. Kindergarten is rather cheap (depending on where you live and if it's a private or communal institution), but nursery homes (for children under 3) are not.

[LordSlowpoke]

They're also the world's #1 invader. So...

"Tu quoque" for the umpteenth time...

Yeah, okay, I get it, as soon as Russia is the bad guy everyone else is a good guy, including the people who undermine the very principles of our supposedly free world. And if you call them out you're a "idiotic pacifist".
I don't even...

Well, Russia is undermining the very principles of our supposedly free world in Ukraine. If you just want to sit back and watch, fine.
This whole talk about "warmongering" in Germany is so silly.

do you read your posts

[Sheb]

Yeah, the argument that it's somehow our (or Ukraine's) fault because we juste didn't give Putin everything he want his textbook idiot pacifism.

Same with ISIS: sure, it would have been better not to attack Iraq in the first place. But what do we do RIGHT NOW? Send the Strongly Worded Letters?

[XXSockXX]

They're also the world's #1 invader. So...

"Tu quoque" for the umpteenth time...

Yeah, okay, I get it, as soon as Russia is the bad guy everyone else is a good guy, including the people who undermine the very principles of our supposedly free world. And if you call them out you're a "idiotic pacifist".
I don't even...

Well, Russia is undermining the very principles of our supposedly free world in Ukraine. If you just want to sit back and watch, fine.
This whole talk about "warmongering" in Germany is so silly.

do you read your posts

What are you getting at? It's ok to call out the US, but Russia has to be appeased because the US is worse? (That is often the line of the argument here, besides being afraid that sanctions against Russia are warmongering, while what Russia does is somehow not.)

[Antsan]

I'm not talking about the USA at all!
And as I said, the Ukraine was instable before Russia did anything at all. Even if Russia wouldn't have intervened the whole thing would have gone to hell and everyone who'd give a damn was able to see it. Russia's behavior isn't really nice, but acting as if they were the ones who escalated the whole situation is kind of ingenious, especially if Russia is kind of forced to do something before they're surrounded by foreign powers who are less than friendly towards them.
Just look at the coverage! Do you think Russian politicians don't notice how they're painted as the bad guys? What impression does that leave in Russia? That we're only trying to help them and they're being unreasonable?
Damn, if Germany was painted internationally as a power that's only not being waged war at because it's so intimidating while Poland as the last ally at my border was going into negotiations to basically associate with those who are my (just yet not) enemies I'd be pretty alarmed. What the hell should they do?

Yeah, the argument that it's somehow our (or Ukraine's) Russia's fault because we juste didn't give Putin the EU everything he they want is textbook idiot pacifism.

What? I know this might be hard for you guys, but for one second assume that the people you are talking about are still humans and just try to apply your arguments on both sides.

Yeah, the argument that it's somehow our (or Ukraine's) fault because we juste didn't give Putin everything he want his textbook idiot pacifism.

Of course this had to be said. It's completely unavoidable that someone is going to shout "blackmail".
If you know you're going to cause a war and what you want is not that important (and frankly, I don't see why we need an association agreement with the Ukraine that badly) it kind of seems like a willing provocation. Or you are just being stubborn.
"Yeah, of course the bear is going to get aggressive if I dance around in front of it's cave, but demanding us to not do that is textbook idiotic environmentalism."
Oh, how much I want a face->wall smiley right now.

[LordSlowpoke]

-snop-

What are you getting at? It's ok to call out the US, but Russia has to be appeased because the US is worse? (That is often the line of the argument here, besides being afraid that sanctions against Russia are warmongering, while what Russia does is somehow not.)

sergarr says america invades, you claim it's an appeal to hypocrisy

antsan says that warmongers are undermining the free world domestically (and bear with the warmongers part if you will, rephrasing it would make it pointless), you reply that russia undermines the free world also and see it as an okay and legitimate argument

i do not see any problems with that no siree

[Sheb]

Your argument would be valid if the EU/NATO sent troops in Ukraine to grab part of it when Yanukovitch refused to sign the agreement. We did not.

Russia is not the bad guy here because we don't like them. They're the bad guy because they invade countries. (And yeah, I know that the US invaded tons of place. That makes them bad guys in tons of context too.)

As for giving in to blackmail, the problem is that you're only encouraging further blackmail. Russia gots tons of tools to defends its interest within the framework of international law. Hell, it might even work from time to time (They didn't need to send tanks to Belarus to get them to join their Custom Union). But it's not okay for Russia to just invade another country when it doesn't get what it wants.

[XXSockXX]

Russia's behavior isn't really nice, but acting as if they were the ones who escalated the whole situation is kind of ingenious, especially if Russia is kind of forced to do something before they're surrounded by foreign powers who are less than friendly towards them.

a) They were the ones who invaded Crimea, if that's not an escalation, I don't know what is.

b) They are forced to invade Ukraine before Ukraine decides to associate with the West, because autocratic countries are entitled to a sphere of interest that can be enforced militarily? In other words, they are perfectly right to soon invade the Baltic and other ex-Warsaw Pact countries, because that is their turf?
That East-West relations are not what they could be is both sides fault, but that doesn't have to be that way. However it seems that Russia has essentially stopped caring a while ago.

sergarr says america invades, you claim it's an appeal to hypocrisy

antsan says that warmongers are undermining the free world domestically (and bear with the warmongers part if you will, rephrasing it would make it pointless), you reply that russia undermines the free world also and see it as an okay and legitimate argument

i do not see any problems with that no siree

Ah, that. The critical part is the thing about domestic warmongers, which I think is nonsense.

[Sergarr]

It's not okay for NATO to invade Libya when it didn't get what it wanted (the rebels winning over Kaddafi).

It's not okay for USA to invade Iraq when it didn't get what it wanted (total political submission, I guess?)

We're far from the first who started to play that way, and when everybody starts blaming us like we're the only one who does that...

"If you cannot stop it, then lead it". If we cannot stop the invasions from happening, then we should incorporate invasions as a part of our global strategy, too.

ADDENDUM: And you see, when Russia invades, there's much, much, much less casualties than when West invades. It's ironic, isn't it?

[XXSockXX]

It's not okay for NATO to invade Libya when it didn't get what it wanted (the rebels winning over Kaddafi).

It's not okay for USA to invade Iraq when it didn't get what it wanted (total political submission, I guess?)

We're far from the first who started to play that way, and when everybody starts blaming us like we're the only one who does that...

"If you cannot stop it, then lead it". If we cannot stop the invasions from happening, then we should incorporate invasions as a part of our global strategy, too.

ADDENDUM: And you see, when Russia invades, there's much, much, much less casualties than when West invades. It's ironic, isn't it?

Gaddafi was killing his own population, nothing like that happened in Ukraine. Whether intervention in Lybia was ultimately a good idea remains to be seen, but at the time it seemed justified from a humanitarian point of view.
Iraq was basically shit.
If Russia starts to invade it's neighbours, it's not surprising that other neighbours get worried and start to think about counter-measures. Ukraine isn't some failed state or Middle Eastern dictatorship.

[Antsan]

My personal view on politics still says that we shouldn't go to war in the Ukraine, but as I, at this point, really don't know what to do instead of just sitting it out and hoping that the Ukrainians get their shit together, I won't try to argue that point.

@Sergarr:

Your argument would be valid if the EU/NATO sent troops in Ukraine to grab part of it when Yanukovitch refused to sign the agreement. We did not.

What we did was supporting the revolutionary movement, which is a way to destabilize the Ukraine while making yourself look good in the process.
Remember how the media ignored the whole fascism problem back then even when called out on it?

As for giving in to blackmail, the problem is that you're only encouraging further blackmail. Russia gots tons of tools to defends its interest within the framework of international law. Hell, it might even work from time to time (They didn't need to send tanks to Belarus to get them to join their Custom Union). But it's not okay for Russia to just invade another country when it doesn't get what it wants.

Russia wasn't blackmailing us. That argument would be valid if Russia had threatened to invade the Ukraine when negotiations were going on, but they didn't.
I am saying that the Ukraine just already was at a point, without any outside intervention on the side of Russia, where the kind of meddling the EU did would lead to the situation we have now. Russia didn't even enter the picture at that point.
Or: Go back to that first video of "Die Anstalt" and listen to what Krone-Schmalz (what a horrible name) had to say about the whole matter. Note how she isn't even talking about Russia but only about the Ukraine being torn apart. Yeah, it was foreseeable. The Ukraine has been unstable for, well, forever now. As I said earlier the majority of it's population consists of minorities who despise each other. How could stirring up everything there not lead to what we see now, even if Russia didn't meddle?

@XXSockXX:

Ah, that. The critical part is the thing about domestic warmongers, which I think is nonsense.

So you think there is no conflict of interest if journalists are working for the government and it's exactly those screaming the loudest how Russia needs to be stopped with violent force? Well, that's good to know then.

Gaddafi was killing his own population, nothing like that happened in Ukraine. Whether intervention in Lybia was ultimately a good idea remains to be seen, but at the time it seemed justified from a humanitarian point of view.
Iraq was basically shit.

Dude, the whole mess in the Ukraine started long before Russia did anything.

[XXSockXX]

My personal view on politics still says that we shouldn't go to war in the Ukraine, but as I, at this point, really don't know what to do instead of just sitting it out and hoping that the Ukrainians get their shit together, I won't try to argue that point.

So you think there is no conflict of interest if journalists are working for the government and it's exactly those screaming the loudest how Russia needs to be stopped with violent force? Well, that's good to know then.

Who is even talking about that? I have yet to hear anything about a German politician proposing something like this..

How could stirring up everything there not lead to what we see now, even if Russia didn't meddle?

Without Russian military support, there would be no civil war, simple as that. How can you compare any support the Maidan revolution might have gotten with that?

[Antsan]

My personal view on politics still says that we shouldn't go to war in the Ukraine, but as I, at this point, really don't know what to do instead of just sitting it out and hoping that the Ukrainians get their shit together, I won't try to argue that point.

So you think there is no conflict of interest if journalists are working for the government and it's exactly those screaming the loudest how Russia needs to be stopped with violent force? Well, that's good to know then.

Who is even talking about that? I have yet to hear anything about a German politician proposing something like this..

Then, again, I direct you to the headlines the journalists where writing. Because, you know, the politicians don't have to if the journalists do it for them.
The connections to the arms industry are a bit less of a surprise, though.

How could stirring up everything there not lead to what we see now, even if Russia didn't meddle?

Without Russian military support, there would be no civil war, simple as that. How can you compare any support the Maidan revolution might have gotten with that?

In what kind of fairy tale world do you live in?

[XXSockXX]

In what kind of fairy tale world do you live in?

I was thinking about asking you the same question. 

But seriously, nobody wants a war with Russia, because nukes, period. I haven't heard anybody seriously considering NATO intervention in Ukraine. Increasing NATO presence in the East seems necessary though, if Russia starts invading countries in that area. Just disarming completely and hoping for the best is completely unrealistic.

[Antsan]

Well, I sure do hope so.

[Corrected my previous post, quoting was borked]