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Author Topic: Sheb's European Megathread: Remove Feta!  (Read 1785623 times)

Morrigi

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #11865 on: October 11, 2014, 05:57:35 pm »

Armies of countries that tend to believe that they have no enemies tend to degrade. No matter how advanced that country may be.
Yeah, plus Germany has a comparably tiny defense budget and the army is rather unpopular, so that didn' help either.

In the context of a hypothetical NATO mobilization, it was revealed that for example the Navy only has about 2 helicopters that are actually working...
...Wait, you're telling me that the various police departments within 20 or 30 miles of my house, in Illinois, have more functioning helicopters than the entire Kriegsmarine? Jesus.

Come on Germany, get your shit together! Make us Americans proud of our largely German heritage.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2014, 06:00:46 pm by Morrigi »
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Antsan

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #11866 on: October 11, 2014, 06:50:12 pm »

Armies of countries that tend to believe that they have no enemies tend to degrade. No matter how advanced that country may be.
Yeah, plus Germany has a comparably tiny defense budget and the army is rather unpopular, so that didn' help either.

In the context of a hypothetical NATO mobilization, it was revealed that for example the Navy only has about 2 helicopters that are actually working...
Dude, I was happy to learn our army is deteriorating.
And this is one reason why:
Quote
No wonder NATO is hesitant.
Good job making someone maybe think twice before going to war. What a relief.


I also want to leave those here (although they're in German, but I cannot do anything about that):
How the German press and the arms lobby are intertwined
It's nice to know we've got independent journalism as opposed to the propaganda machinery in Russia.

The fight on interpretational sovereignty
At 4:39 we can see how those nationalists aren't fascist at all.
Or how footage is manipulated and events are misreported to paint a certain picture.

I've got a feeling there is an effort going on to force a war here.
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smjjames

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #11867 on: October 11, 2014, 07:00:41 pm »

So you're using the interpretation of some German comedians?

As for making NATO think twice, Germany's army not being in a good state is just one factor, as is the US's unwillingness to get caught up in another war if we can avoid it.
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Helgoland

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #11868 on: October 11, 2014, 07:03:08 pm »

And especially Die Anstalt, which is notorious for wanting to be leftist 'just like all the real intellectuals'...
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Antsan

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #11869 on: October 11, 2014, 07:05:41 pm »

Oh come on!
How is the point of that first video in any way dependent on them being leftist or comedians?

I mean, being part of a lobbying organization for the arms industry as a journalist reporting about war seems like a big smoking gun to me.
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smjjames

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #11870 on: October 11, 2014, 07:08:01 pm »

Could someone perhaps translate or summarize what the two are about, for the non-german speaking people here?

@antsan, I don't even know the point about the videos, all I saw on the second one was some satire about Nazis and the first one I only watched the bit up til after the skydiving person and when one of the comedians grabbed the papers out of the others hand.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2014, 07:10:09 pm by smjjames »
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Antsan

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #11871 on: October 11, 2014, 08:10:49 pm »

The first shows a few pretty big names in German quality journalism and how they are connected to certain lobbying organizations for the arms industry - not as in "they talk to those people regularly" but as in "they are members and even parts of the committee of those organizations".
For example there is one who write a strategical paper for the Bundesregierung and then went on to write a positive piece about said strategical paper - one that promotes a more "active" role of the Bundeswehr in the world. There are other examples, but I don't feel qualified to translate them all.
Joffe is especially interesting because he actually sued for this particular episode to be taken from the web presence of the ZDF.
[Edit]The first also comments on how the association agreement between the EU and Ukraine contains military cooperation and the like, thus maybe explaining why Putin might become a bit nervous.[/Edit]


The second one showed a few misrepresentations a perpetrated by the German press.

It begins with some headlines which can be taken to be blatant warmongering. Translated:
"Enough of the talk"
"Show some muscles"
"Now or Never"
"End the Cowardice"
The commentary of the comedians: "That's not reporting, that's general mobilization!"

First example they show: 40 people are forced into a building and burned.
First proposal of the general: "That's just dandy, so just write 'Pro-Russian mob burns helpless Ukrainians!"
The problem: The victims "aren't citizens, they're just separatists."
They cannot write that, so they write this instead (and this part is actually quoted from the newspapers, translation boiled down to )
Quote
After fighting in Odessa between pro-russian activists and government supporters at least 46 people died.
Of course the whole exchange is exaggerated - it's satire.

Next is the passenger plain shot down above the Ukraine. Basically there is no evidence as to who actually shot the thing down, so it gets blamed on the separatists.
In the dialogue this is made fun of with "No evidence? That's good, this way we can operate independently of the facts."
A cover is shown that says "Stop Putin Now!" in front of the faces of victims (of the plain crash, I guess).
Next message about the plain is "it has been perforated" but without any evidence as to who actually did it. So, the general says, they can freely conclude that it probably were the separatists. Keep in mind that this is about what is called "quality journalism", not some kind of boulevard paper.
Following that is a reprimand by the "Deutscher Presserat" (German Press Council) for exploiting the photos of victims for political propaganda. The reaction of the guy sitting in the background: "Doesn't matter. We don't need to report that. As long as it's not shown on TV in front of an audience of millions..." (Yes, that's smug...)

The next picture - a guy holding a stuffed animal. This is first commentated as "A, look how he's strangling that Teddy! That's really great!"
That picture has been commented on with (by a paper called "Sonntags Blick" which manages to be grammatically wrong so it's probably not "quality journalism", so there's that)
Quote
What kind of humans are these? They are trampling the victims dignity!
Next they show the actual videoclip the picture is taken from. You can watch that part for yourself at 3:30.
Given, it might as well be that this is some kind of propaganda. That doesn't change the fact that the quote is as misleading as it can get.

Next: Someone is saying that the pro-russian separatists have done excellent rescue work (I doubt this is the correct translation for "Bergungsarbeit" in this context but it's everything dict.cc is offering) at the site of the plane crash. The one who did that was the leader of the Dutch investigation team. The reaction of the press - well, there was none. "We must all be very brave now. *dramatic pause* Ignore it!"

They then go on to the whole thing with the Russian aid convoy which immediately was called an invasion.

That is followed by footage of Ukrainian fighters actually sporting SS runes and swastikas. If you wanna see that directly jump to 4:35. Reaction: "We'll just go on calling them 'volunteer battalions'."
Because the rumors that there where fascists involved (long before Russia got involved) must clearly be shown to be false.

Next are photos of a convoy leaving/entering the Ukraine/not moving at all, apparently you cannot really tell. But, fortunately, there are satellite photos from the US! Oh noes, ex CIA agents say you can't see anything on those either.
The general panics and suggests finding someone in the CSU (a right-wing party in Bavaria which is maybe comparable to the Tea Party).
When the writer has problems with that strategy, the guy in the background suggests the "old double strategy: The claim goes into the first paragraph, the journalism into the last sentence."
He then goes on to dictate:
"Russian military convoy destroyed - paragraph end - by momentarily unconfirmed reports."

Now firing starts.
"Breach at the home frontier - readers are attacking the newspapers with letters to the editor!"
"Close them!"
"Which letters? It's all on the net!"
"Then close the boards!"
"NO! People are going to Facebook!"
"Then moderate, block, delete, DELETE!"
"But.. but... we're fighting for freedom of speech!"
"But in Russia, not here!"

Next: The ARD advisory board criticizes their own reporting as biased and one-sided. The general is shocked and calls this "Dolchstoß" ("stab in the back").

They finish with "A satire show on the ZDF is making fun of German journalists right now"
In memory of the (temporary) censoring of their previous episode the general starts screaming about how they are going to sue them to cease and desist until they won't be able to walk anymore.
The guy in the back finishes with saying they don't have time for that and finally manages to get through the screaming of the general to say that this episode of "Die Anstalt" is over.
Unfortunately I haven't seen "Downfall", but I guess the generals behavior channels Hitler in that film.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2014, 08:13:36 pm by Antsan »
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mainiac

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #11872 on: October 11, 2014, 08:31:32 pm »

they rather blame Merkel's government for some expensive gifts to the voters.

My German to Anglosphere paradigm translation skills aren't too hot.  What types of gifts are we talking about, how big an impact would they be and will they be offset or not by other things?

Because you could be talking about stimulus that dares not speak it's name.
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XXSockXX

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #11873 on: October 12, 2014, 03:07:15 am »

they rather blame Merkel's government for some expensive gifts to the voters.

My German to Anglosphere paradigm translation skills aren't too hot.  What types of gifts are we talking about, how big an impact would they be and will they be offset or not by other things?

Because you could be talking about stimulus that dares not speak it's name.
Well, not sure if you'd think of these things as stimulus, the criticism is that they are intended as stimulus but might have no effect while being costly and possibly even counterproductive:

- pension age was raised to 67 from 65 a while ago. Now there is an exception, you can get your pension at age 63. Provided you contributed for 45 years, you'll get your full pension, if it is less, you get less. The criticism is that this costs the government a lot of money (more pensioneers, less people contributing), for little effect (if you have a low pension you need additional money from welfare programs). It might also encourage people to retire earlier, which is kind of counterproductive if you want people to work longer (some economists are calling for a pension at age 70).

- "Mütterrente": if you raised a child born before 1992, and didn't work at the time, this counts toward your pension contributions. Same criticism, costs a lot of money (6 billion Euro per year) with little effect (monthly pensions can be raised by ~28 Euro per month, before taxes and insurance, which is a lot for a pension, but not a lot if your pension is low anyway).

- "Betreuungsgeld": if you raise a child age 2 or 3, that doesn't visit a nursery school or kindergarten, you'll get 100-150 Euro per month. Costs a lot of money (1 billion Euro every year), is seen as counterproductive because: it might encourage mothers to stay at home instead of working, it might encourage people to not send their kids to kindergarten (that last one is especially criticised in the context of integration of immigrants).

- minimum wage: there will be a minimum wage of 8,50 Euro, nation-wide, with few exceptions. This has been quite controversial for a variety of reasons. Germany didn't have a minimum wage before, but there are many legally binding collective agreements between unions and employers which in many sectors have much higher minimum wages. Also if you're wage is too low, you're eligible for welfare benefits, to ensure a certain level of income, housing etc. Now this new minimum wage doesn't factor in cost of living (which varies a lot regionally). It also will raise wages in some sectors that had lower wages, like for example for taxi drivers, barbers, butchers, seasonal farm labourers. This might effectively cost jobs in these sectors (it does already), it also does raise prices in these sectors.

And especially Die Anstalt, which is notorious for wanting to be leftist 'just like all the real intellectuals'...
Yeah, ugh. Typical example of idiotic German pacifism, complaining about "warmongering", but having no solutions at all.

Reminds me of that politician from the Left party, who wants "solidarity for the resistance in Kobane" AND to "stop the US bombardment" there. Which one is it you ask? Both of course, because the war against ISIS is a social question that can not be solved with violence. Yeah, sure...  ::)
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Phmcw

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #11874 on: October 12, 2014, 03:42:08 am »

Quote
It might also encourage people to retire earlier, which is kind of counterproductive if you want people to work longer (some economists are calling for a pension at age 70).

Why would they want peoples to work for longer with our unemployment rate? And that's fine and Dandy for some lines of work, but quite a few peoples are not employable at that age. Any jobs where you have to walk a lot will be impossible for a lot of them.

Quote
costs a lot of money (6 billion Euro per year) with little effect (monthly pensions can be raised by ~28 Euro per month, before taxes and insurance, which is a lot for a pension, but not a lot if your pension is low anyway).

This argument is fallacious : since that money is given to the population, either it cost a lot and have a lot of effect, or it is cheap and it have no effect.Money don't disapear.  And btw a small raise is more important for those who earn less. When you live on a small wage, every Euro count.
Quote
- "Betreuungsgeld":
Aren't kindergarden overcrowded in Germany? It make some level of sense in that context. And as for women staying at home (especially migrants) what do you expect with wages as low as 8.5 € an hour? It's not enough to pay for a caretaker.
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Sergarr

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #11875 on: October 12, 2014, 03:54:34 am »

Interesting information about the German propaganda.

I wonder, who's commanding this informational operation?
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XXSockXX

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #11876 on: October 12, 2014, 03:57:43 am »

Quote
It might also encourage people to retire earlier, which is kind of counterproductive if you want people to work longer (some economists are calling for a pension at age 70).

Why would they want peoples to work for longer with our unemployment rate? And that's fine and Dandy for some lines of work, but quite a few peoples are not employable at that age. Any jobs where you have to walk a lot will be impossible for a lot of them.
The idea is that people need to work longer, as there are less and less people contributing to the pension/welfare system, because population is shrinking.
Obviously this is a problem in some lines of work, yes, anything that requires physical labour basically. That might be a problem even before age 60 though.

This argument is fallacious : since that money is given to the population, either it cost a lot and have a lot of effect, or it is cheap and it have no effect.Money don't disapear.  And btw a small raise is more important for those who earn less. When you live on a small wage, every Euro count.
Not really. This benefit is mostly meant for women who stayed at home and have a very low pension anyway. They get a few Euro more (as I said, the 28 Euros are before taxes and social insurance), but they will most likely still need welfare with their low pensions, so the effect is neglible. Still it draws a lot of money from the pension funds.

Aren't kindergarden overcrowded in Germany? It make some level of sense in that context. And as for women staying at home (especially migrants) what do you expect with wages as low as 8.5 € an hour? It's not enough to pay for a caretaker.
Well, not overcrowded, though there is a lack of caretaking infrastructure. The criticism is that this money should rather be invested into that instead.
You wouldn't need to pay for a caretaker if you put your kid into kindergarten. Ironically, if you are rich and do pay a caretaker, you can still claim this benefit.
In context of the migrant thing, the focus is less on mothers not working, it's the idea that immigrant children should be encouraged to go to kindergarten and learn German, instead of being raised at home all day where they often don't speak German.
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Antsan

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #11877 on: October 12, 2014, 04:03:52 am »

Yeah, ugh. Typical example of idiotic German pacifism, complaining about "warmongering", but having no solutions at all.
Yeah, okay, I get it, as soon as Russia is the bad guy everyone else is a good guy, including the people who undermine the very principles of our supposedly free world. And if you call them out you're a "idiotic pacifist".
I don't even...

One solution would have been to not poke into the bees nest of Ukraine in the first place. It has been obvious for years now for everyone who knew anything about the Ukraine that it's a country made up of minorities who despise each other.
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Sergarr

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #11878 on: October 12, 2014, 04:07:37 am »

Yeah, ugh. Typical example of idiotic German pacifism, complaining about "warmongering", but having no solutions at all.
Yeah, okay, I get it, as soon as Russia is the bad guy everyone else is a good guy, including the people who undermine the very principles of our supposedly free world. And if you call them out you're a "idiotic pacifist".
I don't even...

One solution would have been to not poke into the bees nest of Ukraine in the first place. It has been obvious for years now for everyone who knew anything about the Ukraine that it's a country made up of minorities who despise each other.
The one who advocates for war the most is USA, who obviously doesn't know anything about Ukraine.

They're also the world's #1 invader. So...
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Phmcw

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #11879 on: October 12, 2014, 04:11:20 am »

Quote
Still it draws a lot of money from the pension funds.

Important distinction there. Indeed it's a problem.
Quote
In context of the migrant thing, the focus is less on mothers not working, it's the idea that immigrant children should be encouraged to go to kindergarten and learn German, instead of being raised at home all day where they often don't speak German.

If you don't go full French system of cheap/free kindergarden that won't happen. It just won't make economicl sense.

About the recession I was waiting for this : Krugman is definitly one of the best economists of our generation, and I wanted his input.
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