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[Phmcw]

That's cute. There is no such thing as foreign democratization. Libya is a country of tribes. Tribes aligned with the west won, tribes aligned with Russia lost.

If the west goes in, like they did in Libya, they are undemocratic colonialists.
If the west stays out, like in Syria until recently, they are undemocratic colonialists.
If the west supports the existing regime, like in Saudi Arabia, they are undemocratic colonialists.

Taking the opinion of different groups and framing them as one is a convoluted way to build a strawman.

[Sergarr]

That's cute. There is no such thing as foreign democratization. Libya is a country of tribes. Tribes aligned with the west won, tribes aligned with Russia lost.

If the west goes in, like they did in Libya, they are undemocratic colonialists.
If the west stays out, like in Syria until recently, they are undemocratic colonialists.
If the west supports the existing regime, like in Saudi Arabia, they are undemocratic colonialists.

You forgot the fourth one: you do not support the existing regime, but you don't invade the country.

[smjjames]

how does it meshes with the supposed "democratization" operation that EU did to Libya.

That's cute. There is no such thing as foreign democratization. Libya is a country of tribes. Tribes aligned with the west won, tribes aligned with Russia lost.

Tunisia is going through actual democratization, even if it's a bit fragile at this stage, as shown by the fact that the need for foreign intervention was minimal (mainly observers).

Since when were there any tribes aligned with Russia in Libya? It was tribes aligned with ghaddafi vs those who weren't.

In the end though, it devolved into chaos, so, outside of getting rid of ghaddafi, nobody really won.

[scrdest]

That's cute. There is no such thing as foreign democratization. Libya is a country of tribes. Tribes aligned with the west won, tribes aligned with Russia lost.

If the west goes in, like they did in Libya, they are undemocratic colonialists.
If the west stays out, like in Syria until recently, they are undemocratic colonialists.
If the west supports the existing regime, like in Saudi Arabia, they are undemocratic colonialists.

You forgot the fourth one: you do not support the existing regime, but you don't invade the country.

I think you missed one.

[Phmcw]

Gahdaffi was aligned with Russia, and not with the west. Russia wasn't able to support him from afar. The end.

Conflict in the third world are complicated, but at the end there is only few actors that can actually supply enough weapons to fuel a war : regional powers (usually aligned against or with a big power, with "the ennemy of my enemy is very temporarly my friend), and great powers. So the course of the war may be chaotic, but the driving forces are rather clear.

[mainiac]

You forgot the fourth one: you do not support the existing regime, but you don't invade the country.

That's what the US was doing in Syria for three years.

Gahdaffi was aligned with Russia, and not with the west. Russia wasn't able to support him from afar. The end.

It's not the 19th century.  The entire world doesn't revolve around a handful of great powers.  Yes there is influence but that's not the complete story, "the end" as you put it.

[Sheb]

So, some of you may know that the text for CETA - the Canada-EU trade deal- was leaked in August. There is a pretty good analysis here

[Phmcw]

The entire world doesn't revolve around a handful of great powers.  Yes there is influence but that's not the complete story, "the end" as you put it.

I see no reasons to believe this. The world revolve essentially around the US decision, with a bit of USSR and European left over influence, and China's gowing one. But mainly Europe, Russia and the US are the playmakers in Africa.

[smjjames]

So, some of you may know that the text for CETA - the Canada-EU trade deal- was leaked in August. There is a pretty good analysis here

I didn't know about that either.

Anyways, I've only read the executive summary and it doesn't sound like a great deal for Canada with little gain. Also, to really compare, we'd have to know what the EU is sacrificing in the deal.

That's just my opinion as an American though, the Canadians here may have different opinions on it.

[Sheb]

Well, it was made mostly by Canadians, so they focus on their problems. Still, I'd suggest you at least look at the ISDS section.

[Guardian G.I.]

Gahdaffi was aligned with Russia, and not with the west. Russia wasn't able to support him from afar. The end.

Russia simply ignored the issue - it abstained from voting in the UNSC and reacted to the anti-Gaddafi insurrection and the resulting NATO's assault with polite diplomatic statements expressing Russia's concern over the escalating tensions in Libya.
Medvedev was in charge back then, and he didn't want to anger America, just like Putin during his first two terms in power.

[Sergarr]

I consider the open westernization of Syrian rebels as equal to invasion.

When I said "not invade" I mean it. No rebel supporting, no aggressive trade policies, no anything. Pure diplomacy.

[scrdest]

I consider the open westernization of Syrian rebels as equal to invasion.

When I said "not invade" I mean it. No rebel supporting, no aggressive trade policies, no anything. Pure diplomacy.

So, if trade sanctions are not diplomacy, what is? Glaring at people really hard until they cave in?

Also, your definition of invasion is incredibly self-serving and broad.

[smjjames]

I consider the open westernization of Syrian rebels as equal to invasion.

When I said "not invade" I mean it. No rebel supporting, no aggressive trade policies, no anything. Pure diplomacy.

What do you do when pure diplomacy is getting nowhere? Or rather, what would YOU do?

Also, Syria is a gordians knot* of complexity and clusterfuckyness anyway.

*Yes, I'm aware of the legend behind that and the fact that Alexander simply sliced through the thing.

[Ukrainian Ranger]

Interesting... Do USA and EU have any diplomatic\economic methods to bring oil prices down and keep them there for a year or two?