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[Erkki]

I like how NOBODY listened to me telling them to go to the AGG thread since that thread was made to deal with this kind of stuff.

Unfortunately this may be Euro politics for a long time from now on. Brought to you by Putin.

don't blame putin for something you and a couple other posters are responsible, 'kay

he might be doing what he does, but it's you who discusses this here and not in agg

What AGG?

If Putin says twice in a summer "Russia could get to (European capital X) in a week" and keeps talking about military strength, threats, tanks, nukes, patriotic education, defending Russians abroad, I am hardly responsible for that with my barely microscopic political influence here at Bay12. Tanks and men in greens carrying automatic weapons have returned to the political discussions on the continent. Not having an open discussion at any level I dont think is likely to improve things. There is no true parliamentary or ministry-level discussion going on where I live and that is very worrying.

[Sheb]

No, but you're responsible for bringing the discussion to hypothetical Russia-NATO wars. Which tends not to be really informative and bog the thread down.

In other news, I've heard there is a citizen's initiative being prepared to ask for a united EU army. What do you guys think? What form should a unified army take?

[scriver]

AGG = Armchair General General thread
'
edit: Yes, we needed a particular thread for that because of how often it kept derailing news-threads

[miljan]

Miljan: That definition doesn't apply to the NATO treaty, as the 9/11 attacks weren't conducted on behalf of a state.

Now, of course what happened so far is way to mundane to trigger article 5. But that's the point of salami tactics: take a bite at a time. Suppose Russia next seize a Latvian cargo ship with its border guards. Armed attack? Now, Russia shoot warning shots at a Estonian Coast Guard vessel because it's too close to whatever. Armed attacks? Now, some scenario, but one shot hit "by mistake". Armed attack? Etc etc etc...

First salami tactic is divide and conquer and slowly take control. The thing you described is not salami tactic, its actually not any tactic. Its not testing nato article 5, as it can not be used in that regards. Not one of your examples give any logic or any way how they will take a bite on anything (maybe they want to conquer baltic states by capturing all the fishing boats? . In fact, the only thing it will make is the country be more prepared to problems and lower diplomatic relations if its done on purpose.

If russia wanted something to do in baltic, you should be sure, that there would be no testing, probing of anything (because its not very samrt thing to do if you do have a plan for something like that) but fast clean actions (but again that will not happen as there is in reality  nothing to gain and everything to lose).

[miljan]

No, but you're responsible for bringing the discussion to hypothetical Russia-NATO wars. Which tends not to be really informative and bog the thread down.

In other news, I've heard there is a citizen's initiative being prepared to ask for a united EU army. What do you guys think? What form should a unified army take?

I would actually love a EU army that will be independent and not tied to nato/usa. Where did you read that? Can you link it?

[Phmcw]

No, but you're responsible for bringing the discussion to hypothetical Russia-NATO wars. Which tends not to be really informative and bog the thread down.

In other news, I've heard there is a citizen's initiative being prepared to ask for a united EU army. What do you guys think? What form should a unified army take?

Well it's one of the condition for Europe to exist as a "country". But if we have one army, that would mean that european countries give up sovereingty over forgein politics. Not going to happen anytime soon. So I expect a barely working clusterfuck.

[miljan]

No, but you're responsible for bringing the discussion to hypothetical Russia-NATO wars. Which tends not to be really informative and bog the thread down.

In other news, I've heard there is a citizen's initiative being prepared to ask for a united EU army. What do you guys think? What form should a unified army take?

Well it's one of the condition for Europe to exist as a "country". But if we have one army, that would mean that european countries give up sovereingty over forgein politics. Not going to happen anytime soon. So I expect a barely working clusterfuck.

Something like nato but only for EU should work?

[Sheb]

That would just be a defensive alliance, it would still have the two problems of 1) You cannot be entirely certain your allies won't chicken out. and 2) It's incredibly inefficient. I cannot link to it, because I know of it from a guy that know a guy who is on the team.

We could already have great savings and gain increased interoperability if we had unified procurement at EU level for example.

[miljan]

Anyway german families sue ukraine over mh17 crash

http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/german-families-sue-ukraine-mh17-crash-25654475

And catalonia schedules independence referendum. It looks like italy venice region and bosnia srpska region may follow in the future

https://news.vice.com/article/catalonia-hails-scottish-inspiration-as-it-schedules-independence-referendum

[Morrigi]

Russia has a lot of means to secure air supremacy, however. Ranging from anti-air missile complexes (S-300/400/500, Pantzir, etc.) everywhere to the fighter/interceptor aircraft on par with the best Western ones.

wanna talk airfoce?

For starters Russia has no enough pilots and no enough modern aircrafts (not that MIG-35 is comparable to F-22 or F-35 or even modernized F-16)

Crap like su-27 and mig-31 is nothing but a target. Crap in what matters in modern warfare - electronics. Plus, repeating myself, Russia has no enough pilots to tackle NATO

Are you kidding? The MiG-35 is superior in performance to the F-16 in just about every way. It's faster, has a better thrust:weight ratio, has a greater rate of climb, has a greater flight ceiling, and was specifically defined to counter modern Western aircraft. The only problem is that there are only a handful of them.

[mainiac]

Are you kidding? The MiG-35 is superior in performance to the F-16 in just about every way. It's faster, has a better thrust:weight ratio, has a greater rate of climb, has a greater flight ceiling, and was specifically defined to counter modern Western aircraft. The only problem is that there are only a handful of them.

AGG thread man.

[Loud Whispers]

AGG = Armchair General General thread
edit: Yes, we needed a particular thread for that because of how often it kept derailing news-threads

Still bloody well surprises me how often we drift into AGG territory.

[Helgoland]

Well, there's an ongoing invasion on European soil, so it's not too surprising, really.

[Sergarr]

So, how's that lustration going on, UR? Has anybody been lustrated (and putting them into the trash can doesn't really count) already, or was that recent law just another ruse for the Maidan?

[Ukrainian Ranger]

As far as I know the law isn't signed by the President yet.