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[miljan]

Ah, ok. Pretty much all reputable authorities on the matter state otherwise. Please excuse me if I go for their opinion rather than yours. The genocide at Srebrenica occurred in July 1995. NATO did not bomb Kosovo until March 1999. Your position is demonstrably false, unless there is some kind of language barrier here, and you are being specific to what is known as the Kosovo war rather than the collection of conflicts that came about as a result of the break up of Yugoslavia. Even then, we can point at events like the Racak massacre which occurred in Januray 1999, 2 whole months before the bombing began, or the Drenica massacres which started a month before the bombing, or maybe the Gornje Obrinke killings which occurred in September 1998. Granted, there were a significant number of killings that took place after the bombings started, but as I have shown you can not say that the bombing caused the killings to start they were already going on and NATO bombing did not stop them.

 I hope you are not blaming NATO ahead of blaming those who directly carried out the killings.

I am talking only about kosovo, not to other problems in ex yu that I dont know that much about except from medias as I was not there.. Racak massacre actually happen as fighting between military and rebels in a small village. Similar how you have now with ukraine shelling cities and killing civilians, buy just on less scale. You can read more detail about it in the links I posted from different news sites.

Ohh I am not blaming nato, I am blaming UCK, the terroris organization that made all this problems. I blame nato for occupying a territory and ethnic cleansing of serbs, but that is another thing.

[Ukrainian Ranger]

Damned "ceasefire" is as absurd as the one in July. Again it is more or less one-sided with our options limited while enemies' options same as always.

[Owlbread]

There's a phrase we have in Scotland that comes from football; said in relation to a football team that's about to lose if it doesn't do something quickly. We say that moment is "squeaky bum time". I think British government's arses have now reached subsonic levels.

[Phmcw]

Well the thing is : as you damn well know, what is happening in your country don't have a lot to do with your internal politics and a lot to do with external politics.

So where are the pricipal powers standing : Russia cannot really afford to lose Ukraine. They lost yougoslavia, they lost Bulgaria, Romania, Poland,... now they have to put a line somewhere, and it's Ukraine and Belarus.
America was afraid of the strenghtening of the ties between Europe and Russia. An independant Europe is a nightmare for them, and Russia could easily bring energetic independance to the table. So I suspect that they funded and encouraged pro democracy movement and incited oligarch to help them. As supported by the stolen diplomatic cable (Fuck the EU was the least intersting thing they said).
Eu already overextended in eastern Europe. Intergrating Reomania and Bulgaria alone would take decades, there is simply nothing they can do with Ukraine, so the EU is busy desecalating the crisis since day one.

The best thing that can happen right now is, I think , a siccions of Ukraine. Let the Russian side be Russian, and make the richest side as European as possible.

[Ukrainian Ranger]

If it is so easy to create a revolution in another country answer then why USA bothers with half-measures and don't incite a revolt in Russia?

[smjjames]

Uh what, I'm pretty sure America isn't afraid of an Independent Europe, where are you getting that from?

Besides, Russia is the one who chose not to strengthen ties.

[Erkki]

AFAIK Europe is very, very far from being energy dependent on Russia. Gas yes, but there are (more expensive) alternatives to gas. Unfortunately there are apparently lots of residential areas in central Europe that are warmed with gas...

EU may be expansionist in some ways but not militarily. EU is not an "empire" bringing land and people as subjects under a centralized government. EU isn't even a federation. However Phmcw's description is probably pretty close to what is the view of the Russians... I still personally believe that Russian external politics is at least 70-ish% just an extension of inner politics and its development, towards worse it seems.

---

The best thing that can happen right now is, I think , a siccions of Ukraine. Let the Russian side be Russian, and make the richest side as European as possible.

Aye. Could Ukraine just let go of the Eastern parts and finally start its way towards being an European democracy? I know theres a lot of important industry there in Donbass, but thats gone already any way now.

[smjjames]

The best thing that can happen right now is, I think , a siccions of Ukraine. Let the Russian side be Russian, and make the richest side as European as possible.

Isn't the eastern side (the russian side) the part with the economic engine? Or at least a good part of it.

[Erkki]

BTW theres a "Is propaganda on Finland deliberately spread in Russia" poll on the website of a newspaper here. Currently has 56k votes and yes is leading 86-14. There are lots of Russia-positive anti-euro warmongering comments that are of very poor language and have apparently been translated with google translate(the way postpositions are missing and the word order is unusual).

http://www.iltasanomat.fi/ulkomaat/art-1288734796147.html?pos=ok-nln#comments-anchor

I dont wonder, in this year's "Direct line with Vladimir Putin" he said that Russo-Finnish relations are very good because Finland is "energy-dependent" and fears Russia.

Stuff such as this isnt news in the Baltics, Poland, Romania etc. either.

[Sergarr]

If it is so easy to create a revolution in another country answer then why USA bothers with half-measures and don't incite a revolt in Russia?

Depending on who you ask, this was the attempt at inciting a revolt in Russia.

[Phmcw]

If it is so easy to create a revolution in another country answer then why USA bothers with half-measures and don't incite a revolt in Russia?

Well they tried, but Putin is ex KGB, they'd simply imprison or kill your agents. Yakunovch was a sad clown, though, from whatt I could gather. They just had to push things in the right direction and give the impression that NATO would act. It's pretty clear that the EU won't though, so no NATO help. 

Uh what, I'm pretty sure America isn't afraid of an Independent Europe, where are you getting that from?

The Americain government is a machine that live to further the interests of Americain corporations and does its job very well from mass industrial espionnage (echelon project) to pushing favorabe legislation everywhere in the world (copyright law, destroying labor right, free trade,...). However if the EU ever unite, it woould be the greatest threath to this politic, which is why keeping the EU as nothing more than a free trade union has been on the American agenda for a while now.

[smjjames]

Uh what, I'm pretty sure America isn't afraid of an Independent Europe, where are you getting that from?

The Americain government is a machine that live to further the interests of Americain corporations and does its job very well from mass industrial espionnage (echelon project) to pushing favorabe legislation everywhere in the world (copyright law, destroying labor right, free trade,...). However if the EU ever unite, it woould be the greatest threath to this politic, which is why keeping the EU as nothing more than a free trade union has been on the American agenda for a while now.

I can't decide whether you're being a conspiracy theorist or not, though there is the lobbying problem.

Also, you mispelled 'American' twice

[Sheb]

Well, while the US did support the Maidan, one should not overestimate the effect of US support. Events would probably have unfolded in pretty much the same way otherwise.

[Helgoland]

You'd have to people very large amounts of money to camp in Kiev through the winter while enduring political persecution and to keep quiet about being bought. I think we'd have seen a notable spike in US debt if that was the case.

[Dutchling]

Has there ever been a revolution (that wasn't just an armed rebellion) where every protester got paid by the day?

You'd think agitation in general would be the main weapon of the supposed outsiders.