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[miljan]

When the whole world says one thing, and you alone say the other, maybe it's time to reconsider the possibility of being wrong about who's been influenced by propaganda.

First not the whole world, but some of west countries. Second, i was not influenced by propaganda, because few things that I saw I know where lied in west medias. And third a lot of things you can find few years latter in west medias also, about the lies and propaganda about ethnic cleansing.

http://www.mediamonitors.net/gowans1.html

http://www.aim.org/media-monitor/was-the-racak-massacre-a-hoax/

http://emperors-clothes.com/articles/Johnstone/racakhoax.htm

[Loud Whispers]

When the whole world says one thing, and you alone say the other, maybe it's time to reconsider the possibility of being wrong about who's been influenced by propaganda.

Group think is awful though, that one guy alone could be right and the rest of the world wrong. Similarly the rest of the world could just merely be echoing the same propaganda, I've seen that happen a lot in American media where both sides argued over evidence that did not exist or was edited propaganda.
All in all you should always consider the possibility that you are being influenced by propaganda, there will always be someone trying to control what information you view.

[scrdest]

there will always be someone trying to control what information you view.

And sometimes, that person is you.

[Loud Whispers]

there will always be someone trying to control what information you view.

And sometimes, that person is you.

But who was phone
This too. Confirmation biases and shit. Distrust everyone, even yourself.

[Dutchling]

^
Don't trust that guy.

[Ukrainian Ranger]

Russian foreigners? Ukraine is the historical motherland of Russia! How can Russians be called foreigners here?

Brazilian foreigners? Portugal is the historical motherland of Brazil. How can Brazilians be called foreigners here?

[XXSockXX]

There was no civil war in serbia also. Part of territory of serbia is populated by albanian, the same way part of ukraine territory is populated by russians. Everything can be solved politically. You are again trying to say like military in serbia just tried to massacre civilians, and that is also not the case. They did not massacre civilians and than rebel happened. First  the rebel happend with suport form albania, than military moved in to clear the rebel, again as same as in ukraine.

There was a civil war not in Serbia, but in Yugoslavia, the country was falling apart. Albanians in Kosovo wanted to cut ties with Serbia too, like the other ex-Yugoslavian countries. The central question is whether Kosovo is an integral part of Serbia or not (obviously Serbians will say yes and Albanians will say no). I'm aware that it didn't start with massacres, but that these were consequences of the war.

Where I see differences to Ukraine: a year ago, Ukraine was maybe a bit divided, but not falling apart, there was no civil war, no rebellion, no questioning of Ukraines territorial integrity (as opposed to the situation in Yugoslavia). After the Maidan revolution, Russian media instigated massive fears in the Russian-speaking population and threatened intervention (Russia is a big military power, Ukraine is not, so this does not compare to Serbia/Albania at all). Then the rebellion started, backed up by Russia (again Russia is a a big power, Albania was and still isn't at all, even compared to Serbia).

First not the whole world, but some of west countries. Second, i was not influenced by propaganda, because few things that I saw I know where lied in west medias. And third a lot of things you can find few years latter in west medias also, about the lies and propaganda about ethnic cleansing.

http://www.mediamonitors.net/gowans1.html

http://www.aim.org/media-monitor/was-the-racak-massacre-a-hoax/

http://emperors-clothes.com/articles/Johnstone/racakhoax.htm

Please don't start with revisionist conspiracy theory stuff, you don't need that to make your argument. It's not like all these Kosovo Albanians came here for no reason.

[Loud Whispers]

Russian foreigners? Ukraine is the historical motherland of Russia! How can Russians be called foreigners here?

Brazilian foreigners? Portugal is the historical motherland of Brazil. How can Brazilians be called foreigners here?

hue

[Il Palazzo]

When the whole world says one thing, and you alone say the other, maybe it's time to reconsider the possibility of being wrong about who's been influenced by propaganda.

Group think is awful though, that one guy alone could be right and the rest of the world wrong. Similarly the rest of the world could just merely be echoing the same propaganda, I've seen that happen a lot in American media where both sides argued over evidence that did not exist or was edited propaganda.
All in all you should always consider the possibility that you are being influenced by propaganda, there will always be someone trying to control what information you view.

Next you'll be telling me that all opinions are valid and deserve equal time in any public discussion.
 
We all weigh opinions based on evidence presented. When faced with anegdotal "I seen nuthin'" on one side, and years of scrupulously collecting evidence and interviewing victims by organisations like Human Rights Watch on the other, I will be unlikely to entertain massive conspiracy over self-delusion.

[miljan]

There was no civil war in serbia also. Part of territory of serbia is populated by albanian, the same way part of ukraine territory is populated by russians. Everything can be solved politically. You are again trying to say like military in serbia just tried to massacre civilians, and that is also not the case. They did not massacre civilians and than rebel happened. First  the rebel happend with suport form albania, than military moved in to clear the rebel, again as same as in ukraine.

There was a civil war not in Serbia, but in Yugoslavia, the country was falling apart. Albanians in Kosovo wanted to cut ties with Serbia too, like the other ex-Yugoslavian countries. The central question is whether Kosovo is an integral part of Serbia or not (obviously Serbians will say yes and Albanians will say no). I'm aware that it didn't start with massacres, but that these were consequences of the war.

Where I see differences to Ukraine: a year ago, Ukraine was maybe a bit divided, but not falling apart, there was no civil war, no rebellion, no questioning of Ukraines territorial integrity (as opposed to the situation in Yugoslavia). After the Maidan revolution, Russian media instigated massive fears in the Russian-speaking population and threatened intervention (Russia is a big military power, Ukraine is not, so this does not compare to Serbia/Albania at all). Then the rebellion started, backed up by Russia (again Russia is a a big power, Albania was and still isn't at all, even compared to Serbia).

First not the whole world, but some of west countries. Second, i was not influenced by propaganda, because few things that I saw I know where lied in west medias. And third a lot of things you can find few years latter in west medias also, about the lies and propaganda about ethnic cleansing.

http://www.mediamonitors.net/gowans1.html

http://www.aim.org/media-monitor/was-the-racak-massacre-a-hoax/

http://emperors-clothes.com/articles/Johnstone/racakhoax.htm

Please don't start with revisionist conspiracy theory stuff, you don't need that to make your argument. It's not like all these Kosovo Albanians came here for no reason.

I see that you do not follow or know that much about this  region. Yugoslavia civil war was about different ex yu countries wanting to be independent. Kosovo was not a countrie. No there where not consequences of the war, as there was no civil war in serbia, nor was serbia made from different countries, like yugoslavia is. There was also no questionable territory in serbia. You can not take a part of territory and declare it a new country (well you can, with force and ethnic cleaning).

Normal that kosov albanians, serbians and all people in it or in whole ex yu run all over the world. That is not proof of anything than there was a full time war going in a country (the same as in ukraine).

There is no difference in ukraine compared to serbia to the pointof nato agresion/invasion. Literally no difference. Is albania stronger or weaker doesn't matter, because the plan and how things happened are same.

[Loud Whispers]

Next you'll be telling me that all opinions are valid and deserve equal time in any public discussion.

Why would I tell you that? An opinion is validated by how it is justified by facts, nor am I an adjudicator of public discussion in any moment bar when I'm OP.

We all weigh opinions based on evidence presented. When faced with anegdotal "I seen nuthin'" on one side, and years of scrupulously collecting evidence and interviewing victims by organisations like Human Rights Watch on the other, I will be unlikely to entertain massive conspiracy over self-delusion.

Good on you, stick to your guns and keep to the evidence. Just never for a single moment try to justify anything by its popularity.

[Sheb]

I know it's been a few pages, but Owlbread asked about the possibility of turning Brussels into a kind of European DC, so I'm going to answer that. Warning, it's complicated (Belgium!).

So, the idea of Brussels as a European district is one that comes up from time to time, especially when discussing possible post-Flemish independence scenarios for Belgium. One of my friend even ran for a party whose platform included that possiblity. Here's why it's not going to happen.

1. In Belgium, political parties are split by language, not region. The result is that no party specifically care about Brussels, while Flemish parties focus on Flanders and french parties on Walloonia. Since both regions wants Brussels (it's the country's economic center), no party will advocate an independent Brussels.

2. Brussels is way too small. Not the actual city, but the current Brussels-Capital region. Basically, it include mostly the inner-city, while most of the suburbs and the actual metropolitan area is outside that division. They would simply not be viable at their current size. Also, since in Belgium people pay taxes where they live and not where they work, Brussels manage to generate most of the country's wealth while being the poorest region, since anyone who makes money move outside the actual regions.

There has been repeated calls to expand the Brussels-Capital region, which have been opposed by the Flemish (Brussels-Capital is entirely within Flanders, so expanding it would be mostly at Flanders' expense)

3. Everyone wants Brussels. It's an historic Flemish city, but most of its inhabitant speaks French. As such, everyone feels it has a claim to it: Brussels is actually the capital of Flanders (depite not being part of the Flemish region), while the French-speaking community recently changed its name to "Walloonia-Brussels Federation".

Feel free to point out which part of this post left you confused so I can try to explain the mess that is my country a bit better.

P.S. I'm seeing rumors on my FB that Russia is handing out Russian passport in Luhansk. Frighteningly similar to what happened in Georgia pre-2008.

P.P.S. Miljan: Are you seriously trying to say that Serbia did not conduct massacre and ethnic cleansing during the whole post-Yugoslavia mess?

[miljan]

P.P.S. Miljan: Are you seriously trying to say that Serbia did not conduct massacre and ethnic cleansing during the whole post-Yugoslavia mess?

Not trying to say, knowing. The thing changed when nato started bombing, from that point on, all shit started to happen. But for thing we are talking here, similarities to ukraine, no. Do you think you know what happened here, before nato aggression, during it, and after it?

[MonkeyHead]

Ah, ok. Pretty much all reputable authorities on the matter state otherwise. Please excuse me if I go for their opinion rather than yours. The genocide at Srebrenica occurred in July 1995. NATO did not bomb Kosovo until March 1999. Your position is demonstrably false, unless there is some kind of language barrier here, and you are being specific to what is known as the Kosovo war rather than the collection of conflicts that came about as a result of the break up of Yugoslavia. Even then, we can point at events like the Racak massacre which occurred in Januray 1999, 2 whole months before the bombing began, or the Drenica massacres which started a month before the bombing, or maybe the Gornje Obrinke killings which occurred in September 1998. Granted, there were a significant number of killings that took place after the bombings started, but as I have shown you can not say that the bombing caused the killings to start they were already going on and NATO bombing did not stop them.

 I hope you are not blaming NATO ahead of blaming those who directly carried out the killings.

[Guardian G.I.]

Since when does NATO control the media in Eastern Europe?

There is no direct control. The media either retell biased stories by major Western news agencies like Reuters or simply add their own bias.