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[Owlbread]

Russian foreigners? Ukraine is the historical motherland of Russia! How can Russians be called foreigners here?

It all depends on your perspective. I think Ukrainian Ranger certainly sees Russia as foreign. Personally, I don't think there's anything wrong with being foreign. Someone may correct me and dig up a quote that I regret or something but I can't remember a point where I've met someone and thought to myself "right, you're a 'foreigner' aren't you? That means you aren't like me."

Then again, thinking about it... maybe I have; I just acknowledged it and never saw it as that big of a fundamental issue. There's been times perhaps that I've watched Ed Miliband or David Cameron or guys like that in Scotland giving speeches and marveled at how out of place they looked, how little they "got" Scotland. Is that recognising them as foreign? Is that why they are so incompetent in running us? Why then do I feel the same way about Scottish Labour politicians from Westminster? Even Scottish Labour politicians sitting in the Scottish parliament don't seem to get us.

In any case I feel I have more in common with the Belgians in this thread than the majority of Scots.

Isn't Ukraine also of the Slavic group though?

It is. It is the "mother nation" of the East Slavs, in a way. Most East Slavic peoples have their roots in ancient Ukraine, then Kievan Rus.

[miljan]

Not exactly sure of the irony here, unless you mean Kosovo?

Yes. Serbian nationalists bled and died to stop historic "Serbian land" settled by Albanian foreigners (as they saw it) declaring themselves independent, thereby breaking the Serbian nation apart and perhaps making them subordinate to the West. They still argue to this day over that - "Kosovo is Serbia" and so on. Now Ukrainian nationalists are bleeding and dying to stop historic "Ukrainian land" settled by Russian foreigners declaring themselves independent, thereby breaking the Ukrainian nation apart and making them subordinate to the East. Serbs are fighting on the side of those Russian rebels out of loyalty to Russia, the Pan-Slavic ideology and Orthodox Christianity.

Of course this does work both ways - Putin justified Ossetia's occupation on the Kosovar precedent.

They are there because of russian volunteers that help in civil war in yugoslavia (and directly them actually). And they are also religious fanatics.. the worst kind

The real irony is if you want to talk about how west  is acting to same situation in case of kosovo and in case of ukraine. It's really funny, but that is politics and different interest.

[XXSockXX]

The real irony is if you want to talk about how west  is acting to same situation in case of kosovo and in case of ukraine.

The difference is, in Kosovo Serbian militias committed massacres against the Albanian population. I don't know if an independent Kosovo was such a good idea overall, but clearly there is a reason for it.
In case of Ukraine there was no such thing, the worst that happened to the Russian speaking population there was the repeal of a (relatively new) language law, that is not exactly the same situation as in Kosovo.

[miljan]

The real irony is if you want to talk about how west  is acting to same situation in case of kosovo and in case of ukraine.

The difference is, in Kosovo Serbian militias committed massacres against the Albanian population. I don't know if an independent Kosovo was such a good idea overall, but clearly there is a reason for it.
In case of Ukraine there was no such thing, the worst that happened to the Russian speaking population there was the repeal of a (relatively new) language law, that is not exactly the same situation as in Kosovo.

No. There is literally no difference. Militery was killing and attacking rebels not the albanian  civilians. In same way the thing ukraine army is doing on the east. But you wouldn't get that information, you would get different information.
There is as much reason as in ukraine case.

[Phmcw]

In that kind of conflict, there are no civilian : the armed uprising is the concretisation of the will of a part of the civilian population. Either you target them, or you are sitting ducks like the Alericains in Irak.

[TD1]

Then again, thinking about it... maybe I have; I just acknowledged it and never saw it as that big of a fundamental issue. There's been times perhaps that I've watched Ed Miliband or David Cameron or guys like that in Scotland giving speeches and marveled at how out of place they looked, how little they "got" Scotland. Is that recognising them as foreign? Is that why they are so incompetent in running us? Why then do I feel the same way about Scottish Labour politicians from Westminster? Even Scottish Labour politicians sitting in the Scottish parliament don't seem to get us.

I'd say that's less to do with any "foreign" status, and more to do with them being politicians. A rather unlikable bunch. Most of them.

[XXSockXX]

No. There is literally no difference. Militery was killing and attacking rebels not the albanian  civilians. In same way the thing ukraine army is doing on the east. But you wouldn't get that information, you would get different information.
There is as much reason as in ukraine case.

Nonsense. Read up on the Kosovo war. There were plenty of civilian victims on both sides, and without NATO intervention, Serbian militias might have ethnically cleansed the whole area. It isn't nearly as bad in Ukraine now, and it certainly wasn't before Russia occupied Crimea. The situations do not compare at all.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_massacres_in_the_Kosovo_War

[miljan]

No. There is literally no difference. Militery was killing and attacking rebels not the albanian  civilians. In same way the thing ukraine army is doing on the east. But you wouldn't get that information, you would get different information.
There is as much reason as in ukraine case.

Nonsense. Read up on the Kosovo war. There were plenty of civilian victims on both sides, and without NATO intervention, Serbian militias might have ethnically cleansed the whole area. It isn't nearly as bad in Ukraine now, and it certainly wasn't before Russia occupied Crimea. The situations do not compare at all.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_massacres_in_the_Kosovo_War

Hehe. Not correct dude (especially from wiki, as I can tell you directly several incorect things from the wiki that where simply  not correct). There was no ethnic cleaning. There where civ casualties as in any war and crimes also, but when it comes to ethnic cleaning it did not happen.  I am from kosovo (or better said was). A lot of things that where just simple propaganda just to blow things out of water so there is a support for bombing

And do you know what is even more funny, the real ethnic cleaning  happened after the nato occupation of kosovo(in my house in Pec leaves another person now). You will not find anything about it in the west news.


So. Ukraine is 100% same as kosovo (when it started). Rebels started fighting with support from the neighbor countries, military started fighting them in different areas. 99% same.

[Phmcw]

According to my eastern European friend, (Bulgarian and Romanians) Nato flooded the news with propaganda.

[Dutchling]

Since when does NATO control the media in Eastern Europe?

[scrdest]

Since when does NATO control the media in Eastern Europe?

Reptilian-Alien-Illuminati-OWG AD.

[XXSockXX]

Hehe. Not correct dude (especially from wiki). There was no ethnic cleaning. There where civ casualties as in any war and crimes also, but when it comes to ethnic cleaning it did not happen nor there was a plan for it.  I am from kosovo (or better said was). A lot of things that where just simple propaganda just to blow things out of water so there is a support for bombing

And do you know what is even more funny, the real ethnic cleaning  happened after the nato ocupation of kosovo (in my house in Pec leaves another person). You will not find anything about it in the west news.

I talked to plenty of Kosovo Albanians who came here as refugees, they'd probably see that a bit different. I'm aware though plenty of Serbians were displaced too, that is a well known fact.

So. Ukraine is 100% same as kosovo (when it started). Rebels started fighting with support from the neighbor countries, military started fighting them in different areas. 99% same.

I don't get that. The Kosovo war resulted from the Yugoslavian civil war, where no side had that much backup from other countries, except for Russia diplomatically backing Serbia and EU/NATO backing Croatia and Bosnia.
In Ukraine, there was no civil war and there was no rebellion until Russia threatened military intervention and annexed Crimea under the pretext of protecting civilians that were not threatened at all. In Ukraine the whole thing could have been solved politically. It's not like the Ukrainian government tried to massacre civilians or like there was a rebellion before Russia created one.

[miljan]

Hehe. Not correct dude (especially from wiki). There was no ethnic cleaning. There where civ casualties as in any war and crimes also, but when it comes to ethnic cleaning it did not happen nor there was a plan for it.  I am from kosovo (or better said was). A lot of things that where just simple propaganda just to blow things out of water so there is a support for bombing

And do you know what is even more funny, the real ethnic cleaning  happened after the nato ocupation of kosovo (in my house in Pec leaves another person). You will not find anything about it in the west news.

I talked to plenty of Kosovo Albanians who came here as refugees, they'd probably see that a bit different. I'm aware though plenty of Serbians were displaced too, that is a well known fact.

So. Ukraine is 100% same as kosovo (when it started). Rebels started fighting with support from the neighbor countries, military started fighting them in different areas. 99% same.

I don't get that. The Kosovo war resulted from the Yugoslavian civil war, where no side had that much backup from other countries, except for Russia diplomatically backing Serbia and EU/NATO backing Croatia and Bosnia.
In Ukraine, there was no civil war and there was no rebellion until Russia threatened military intervention and annexed Crimea under the pretext of protecting civilians that were not threatened at all. In Ukraine the whole thing could have been solved politically. It's not like the Ukrainian government tried to massacre civilians or like there was a rebellion before Russia created one.

In case of kosovo, it had support from albania, as it is in their interest that kosovo becomes independent. The similar thing will happen in future with makedonia also.

There was no civil war in serbia also. Part of territory of serbia is populated by albanian, the same way part of ukraine territory is populated by russians. Everything can be solved politically. You are again trying to say like military in serbia just tried to massacre civilians, and that is also not the case. They did not massacre civilians and than rebel happened. First  the rebel happend with suport form albania, than military moved in to clear the rebel, again as same as in ukraine.

[smjjames]

It's as the Turks say, 'There was no Albanian genocide.'

[Il Palazzo]

When the whole world says one thing, and you alone say the other, maybe it's time to reconsider the possibility of being wrong about who's been influenced by propaganda.