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Author Topic: Sheb's European Megathread: Remove Feta!  (Read 1751856 times)

Owlbread

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #10290 on: September 05, 2014, 08:58:37 am »

i think we agreed that if you want to leave, then do so

I don't want to leave though, I think the EU works well. It's the only Union I'm actually comfortable with because all its member states have full international representation and their sovereignty as individual states is respected. I just want it to be the "International Federation" rather than one big European superstate. European centricity is, in my mind, the cancer of the whole European Union project. As you've said before there's no real reason why we can't have countries like Tunisia in our union.

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the main beef with the uk is that it joined and now is actively sabotaging efforts to make this whole union business not pre-whiskey insurrection america tier bullshit

it'll be a shame, but you guys never really even considered yourselves european did you

I do consider myself European because I live in an island off the coast of Europe and my ancestors have lived here while speaking Indo-European languages (of specifically European varieties) for about 7000 years or something, I can't speak for my English colleagues. Culturally I have the most in common with my European neighbours.

I'm as European as I am British, really.

I said that I wasn't being serious. Also, what about Munich? We'd have to first define what is 'Europe', whether or not it includes Russia, and find the center of that.

The problem as I see it is that the EU is still massively Western European centric and Europe is a very difficult entity to define. Removing the whole "European" component to the EU would be the best course of action I think.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2014, 09:10:06 am by Owlbread »
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smjjames

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #10291 on: September 05, 2014, 09:11:52 am »

I said that I wasn't being serious. Also, what about Munich? We'd have to first define what is 'Europe', whether or not it includes Russia, and find the center of that.

The problem as I see it is that the EU is still massively Western European centric and Europe is a very difficult entity to define. Removing the whole "European" component to the EU would be the best course of action I think.

I was going by Europe as it's defined by a geographical region. Didn't include Russia in it's entirety though as that would pull the capital well into Russia. Though if just western Russia was included, it would just pull the capital into either Poland, Czech Republic, or Slovakia.
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Owlbread

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #10292 on: September 05, 2014, 09:14:45 am »

I was going by Europe as it's defined by a geographical region. Didn't include Russia in it's entirety though as that would pull the capital well into Russia. Though if just western Russia was included, it would just pull the capital into either Poland, Czech Republic, or Slovakia.

If "Europe" was defined as one big region it would pretty much be a third Slavic, a third Germanic and a third Romance. It's nearly a whole half Slavic if you consider how many Slavic states there are in Europe.
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RedKing

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #10293 on: September 05, 2014, 09:16:15 am »

Prague was capital of the Holy Roman Empire for a while, no reason it couldn't be an EU capital. It's sort of Germanic, sort of Slavic. And all in all a pretty hoopy place.
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Erkki

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #10294 on: September 05, 2014, 09:17:05 am »

EU is an "Empire" now?

I also don't feel very Belgian...
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Owlbread

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #10295 on: September 05, 2014, 09:18:20 am »

EU is an "Empire" now?

It's a big geopolitical entity, pretty much a voluntary Empire led by bureaucrats.

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I also don't feel very Belgian...

Nor do I but I know Belgium is the centre of Europe at the moment.
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LordSlowpoke

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #10296 on: September 05, 2014, 09:20:20 am »

i think we agreed that if you want to leave, then do so

I don't want to leave though, I think the EU works well. It's the only Union I'm actually comfortable with because all its member states have full international representation and their sovereignty as individual states is respected. I just want it to be the "International Federation" rather than one big European superstate. European centricity is, in my mind, the cancer of the whole European Union project. As you've said before there's no real reason why we can't have countries like Tunisia in our union.

there is no reason not to add tunisia and i stand by that yes

but... who exactly said that centralization means that suddenly it's an europe-only kool kidz klub

consider an unified foreign policy decided by the european parliament, or abolishing national armies in favor of a common one, or fully applying the "man = citizen" thing from the french revolution at least within its states

and do keep in mind that other than the uk there are 27 states that would be too busy bickering amongst one another to decide they should give you the treatment you're getting right now (that's probably gonna grow at one point)

I do consider myself European because I live in an island off the coast of Europe and my ancestors have lived here while speaking Indo-European languages (of specifically European varieties) for about 7000 years or something, I can't speak for my English colleagues. Culturally I have the most in common with my European neighbours.

I'm as European as I am British, really.

that's plenty fair

still, the general anti-european attitude in britain reminds me of things going back to the time of the british empire

unpleasant vibes really
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Owlbread

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #10297 on: September 05, 2014, 09:40:19 am »

but... who exactly said that centralization means that suddenly it's an europe-only kool kidz klub

consider an unified foreign policy decided by the european parliament, or abolishing national armies in favor of a common one, or fully applying the "man = citizen" thing from the french revolution at least within its states

The reason why it is a Europe-only kool kidz klub is because, with greater integration like that (abolition of national armies etc) it will truly be one big European state called the European Union whose sphere of influence is forever constrained by the "European" prefix.

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and do keep in mind that other than the uk there are 27 states that would be too busy bickering amongst one another to decide they should give you the treatment you're getting right now (that's probably gonna grow at one point)

I don't think there's any doubt that the status quo is not going to last, no matter how much Cameron wants it to. As an independent state Scotland will most likely not have those opt outs, but in my eyes it's no big issue.

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still, the general anti-european attitude in britain reminds me of things going back to the time of the british empire

unpleasant vibes really

Yeah, that's pretty much it. The UK is basically the cockpit of the British empire; it is designed as a state to uphold the rule of the few over the majority, to preserve elites and social orders and to act as a "home nation" (the kind I talked about earlier) to rule over its colonies in Canada and the like. As a result the UK is still massively centralised; most "cockpits" are. Now that the Empire is gone, long may it stay that way, the UK feels lost because it's like the driving seat for a car that no longer exists.

Culturally there's still old Imperialist aspirations and all sorts of stuff going on and lots of historical anti-revisionists are kicking about (the Union/Empire was a force for good, those natives actually needed civilising and the sun shone out of Victoria's arse etc) but this is to be expected. The UK still feels like it has "great power" status and should thus participate on the world stage like some kind of competitor to its continental neighbours, even though it is the sick man of Northern Europe and its internal problems are so great that money simply cannot and should not be wasted on any more adventures. It thus needs vast amounts of reform to remove the various structures that keep it in this vestigial cockpit state; devolution everywhere, reform of the political system to ensure greater democratic representation and the grip of the elites needs to be broken.

I can't see any of that happening in the near future, hence why I think independence for Scotland is the best option because it will shake up the British system so much that reform may become possible. Once that reform takes place and the old forces that still drive us in Imperialist directions are gone, then I'm sure Britain will turn to Europe with much less animosity.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2014, 09:45:49 am by Owlbread »
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scrdest

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #10298 on: September 05, 2014, 09:58:13 am »

Prague was capital of the Holy Roman Empire for a while, no reason it couldn't be an EU capital. It's sort of Germanic, sort of Slavic. And all in all a pretty hoopy place.

Hoppy, too. Mmm, Czech beer.
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We are doomed. It's just that whatever is going to kill us all just happens to be, from a scientific standpoint, pretty frickin' awesome.

LordSlowpoke

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #10299 on: September 05, 2014, 09:59:30 am »

The reason why it is a Europe-only kool kidz klub is because, with greater integration like that (abolition of national armies etc) it will truly be one big European state called the European Union whose sphere of influence is forever constrained by the "European" prefix.

so... what do you expect to be done?

you do realize that in its current shape and form, it's pretty much doomed to fail, right?

take greece, were the union more solid it'd make more sense to look after a fellow constituent republic or however you'd wish to call it than "teaching lessons" by tanking the country's quality of life and basically wrecking everything

hell, they probably wouldn't have had the wiggle room to cook the books in the first place

and by all means - break free, my vision of taking down both the english and french imperial aspirations is to pretty much have the voluntary empire as you've put it slam its own institutions in there instead, you might recall me saying that your independence debacle would be far easier if it were just declaring scotland a separate subdivision of the union in the parliament

it's pretty fitting if you ask me

Quote
I don't think there's any doubt that the status quo is not going to last, no matter how much Cameron wants it to. As an independent state Scotland will most likely not have those opt outs, but in my eyes it's no big issue.

opt-outs shouldn't have existed in the first place, you should be glad that you won't be part of the blatant breach of equality between member states shenanigan

Quote
Yeah, that's pretty much it. The UK is basically the cockpit of the British empire; it is designed as a state to uphold the rule of the few over the majority, to preserve elites and social orders and to act as a "home nation" (the kind I talked about earlier) to rule over its colonies in Canada and the like. As a result the UK is still massively centralised; most "cockpits" are. Now that the Empire is gone, long may it stay that way, the UK feels lost because it's like the driving seat for a car that no longer exists.

Culturally there's still old Imperialist aspirations and all sorts of stuff going on and lots of historical anti-revisionists are kicking about (the Union/Empire was a force for good, those natives actually needed civilising and the sun shone out of Victoria's arse etc) but this is to be expected. The UK still feels like it has "great power" status and should thus participate on the world stage like some kind of competitor to its continental neighbours, even though it is the sick man of Northern Europe and its internal problems are so great that money simply cannot and should not be wasted on any more adventures. It thus needs vast amounts of reform to remove the various structures that keep it in this vestigial cockpit state; devolution everywhere, reform of the political system to ensure greater democratic representation and the grip of the elites needs to be broken.

I can't see any of that happening in the near future, hence why I think independence for Scotland is the best option because it will shake up the British system so much that reform may become possible. Once that reform takes place and the old forces that still drive us in Imperialist directions are gone, then I'm sure Britain will turn to Europe with much less animosity.

that is a barrelload of insight

i'll note it down, already mentioned the reform thing above
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FritzPL

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #10300 on: September 05, 2014, 10:48:25 am »

The reason why it is a Europe-only kool kidz klub is because, with greater integration like that (abolition of national armies etc) it will truly be one big European state called the European Union whose sphere of influence is forever constrained by the "European" prefix.

this guy
Would you like European Union's 'sphere of influence' to be larger? To include countries like Syria, Libia, Egypt? They got their own unions, they never asked to be let into the EU, they never wanted anything with it. Besides, we can see a fine example of a 'large sphere of influence' in effect around Russia - a doctrine of 'close abroad', where every country bordering Russia or being close enough and small enough gets fucked with and bullied. If you resist, you get the Georgian 2008, or the current Ukrainian crisis. That's Russia's wide sphere of influence.

Sergarr

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #10301 on: September 05, 2014, 11:13:38 am »

When is the Scottish referendum, again?
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Dutchling

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #10302 on: September 05, 2014, 11:16:23 am »

When is the Scottish referendum, again?
Thursday 18 September, so in two weeks.
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Sergarr

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #10303 on: September 05, 2014, 11:21:21 am »

When is the Scottish referendum, again?
Thursday 18 September, so in two weeks.
Huh, I thought all major referendum were always set up on Sundays? Is Thursday 18 September a working day or not.
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RedKing

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #10304 on: September 05, 2014, 11:22:29 am »

Looking at the polling data, it doesn't look like the referendum is likely to succeed. About a 57/43 split against right now.
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Remember, knowledge is power. The power to make other people feel stupid.
Quote from: Neil DeGrasse Tyson
Science is like an inoculation against charlatans who would have you believe whatever it is they tell you.
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