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[Mictlantecuhtli]

http://news.yahoo.com/icrc-says-needs-detailed-list-convoy-goods-russia-153642920.html

The inventory manifest has already been requested. If the convoy moves into or attempts to move into Ukraine without confirming its inventory to Ukrainian officials it can and will and should be declared as a hostile convoy. That is how sovereignty works.

Once again, claiming in any way that Ukraine would be wrong for attacking this military convoy if it moved into Ukraine at this moment would be blatantly incorrect. Ukraine has taken the steps to attempt to verify this convoy's legitimacy. If Russia moves it while ignoring their requests, what else should it be considered than a hostile action?

[Guardian G.I.]

What do we do when a nation shoots down a plane that enters its airspace without clearance?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_airliner_shootdown_incidents

Apparently lots of things, ranging from universal condemnation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Lines_Flight_007) to admitting an incident almost 50 years after it happened (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_France_Flight_1611). (side-note: I thought France was better than that...)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655
Not only the country who shot the airline refused to apologize and didn't punish the perpetrators, but it also awarded them with medals for distinguished service. The international condemnation of the incident and the resulting sanctions were absolutely punishing.

I think Mict wants war.

If Mict was the US President, his aggressiveness and warmongering would make even the most hawkish American politicians look like pacifists.

[GrizzlyAdamz]

Lots of people have said it's better to SEARCH THEM, not that they should be given free reign.

Again, how you gonna search them if they enter through the border that has no Ukrainian border controls?

That doesn't mean you bomb them dude. Israel's actions with that gaza flotilla were declared illegal & condemned. Do you think Ukraine could weather the fallout without the US in its back pocket like Israel?


They did greatorder, but everyone's fresh outta trust when it comes to Russia and what it says.


Yeah yeah guardian, was discussed. They also paid reparations.

[Ukrainian Ranger]

Lots of people have said it's better to SEARCH THEM, not that they should be given free reign.

Again, how you gonna search them if they enter through the border that has no Ukrainian border controls?

I was under the impression they had agreed to stop and go through a controlled border terminal?

It is Russians we are talking about. They may agree on one thing and happily do completely another.
Besides there are no official agreement on anything regarding that convoy

Do you think Ukraine could weather the fallout

I think that a bombed convoy will be used as an excuse for Russian invasion. No matter what will be inside. In fact no one will ever have a chance to check what Ukrainian army destroyed. It can be nukes but Russia will scream - "humanitarian aid". Good like proving anything else

If Putin wants war there are no way to avoid full-scale war with Russia but surrendering. And accepting that convoy not on our conditions is exactly that. It is demonstration that using a treat of invasion Russia can do just everything

[wobbly]

It's interesting that the Kremlin claims they're working with the red cross, yet I can find no official statement from IRCA on the matter. Surely if the aid was legit they'd be officially confirming it. Or is it normal policy for them to be silent in these situations? The only reason I could think for them not making a statement was if they decided it was undiplomatic to accuse Russia of straight out lying.

[Loud Whispers]

I thought they were using the red cross symbol not working with the red cross organization.

[GrizzlyAdamz]

I thought they were using the red cross symbol not working with the red cross organization.

I've read they worked with the russian red cross but there're communication failures with the international committee of the red cross, who are supposed to oversee the operation.

[mainiac]

If I wanted to get relief somewhere fast, I'd support doing just that- and this pragmatism is what Russia is standing on.

That is utter crap.  If Russia wanted to speed this through they would work with the Red Cross and the supplies would already be delivered.

No, they wouldnt. There's a reason the national guard gets mobilized for domestic emergencies. The logistics they can bring to bear are enormous. The red cross, while a big organization, can't compete with a nation's armed forces in this regard.

Yes they would.  Red Cross does deliveries in less time then this convoy has been discussed.  If you had the stuff over to the Red Cross, the logistics are gone, it's quite easy to have 200 volunteers drive trucks for less then 100 miles.

It's interesting that the Kremlin claims they're working with the red cross, yet I can find no official statement from IRCA on the matter.

Red Cross has issued a statement, they didn't approve the convoy and thought the negotiations with Russia are still ongoing.

Russia has a neat little trick in this where they just tell the news sources "Yup we negotiated with Red Cross/Ukraine/EU" and the media just printed all three without bothering to check.  Pretty amazing how effective that has been.


What this all really just reduces too is that Russia is using "poison pill" politics to rile up the base, i.e. the rubes at home like Sergarr.  American politicians did this for a long time.  Like Republicans would vote to approve the minimum wage increases that Democrats wanted but put in something completely unacceptable to them like banning gay marriage nationwide.  They didn't want either thing, they wanted to be able to go home and blame the Democrats for a breakdown in negotiations you deliberately created.  This lead to a big increase in secret negotiations because it was the only way anyone could negotiate in good faith.

Russia is offering the promise of getting aid to cut off people in cities controlled by the surrogates but slipping in the poison pill of Ukraine loosing the right to control it's own border.  It is a deliberately offensive condition meant to torpedo the whole thing but Russia just wants to play it up for the base.

[GrizzlyAdamz]

If I wanted to get relief somewhere fast, I'd support doing just that- and this pragmatism is what Russia is standing on.

That is utter crap.  If Russia wanted to speed this through they would work with the Red Cross and the supplies would already be delivered.

No, they wouldnt. There's a reason the national guard gets mobilized for domestic emergencies. The logistics they can bring to bear are enormous. The red cross, while a big organization, can't compete with a nation's armed forces in this regard.

Yes they would.  Red Cross does deliveries in less time then this convoy has been discussed.  If you had the stuff over to the Red Cross, the logistics are gone, it's quite easy to have 200 volunteers drive trucks for less then 100 miles.

Humbug. Even with the headstart of materials gathered & loaded into appropriate trucks, (also gathered (by the army)), the RC would still need to gather those drivers, (mind, trucks require special licenses to operate), and get permission from everyone. The drivers alone would have taken days if you're not drawing from the ready supply in the military, and diplomacy isn't that fast, even for the red cross. If anything, I imagine the Russians forcing the issue will get that part solved even faster, (in the worst way possible, mind).

[mainiac]

Humbug. Even with the headstart of materials gathered & loaded into appropriate trucks, (also gathered (by the army)), the RC would still need to gather those drivers, (mind, trucks require special licenses to operate), and get permission from everyone.

You are stretching to find difficulties where none exist.  The ICRC does this sort of thing all the time.

I think they might even be doing an operation in collaberation with the Ukrainian government but English news doesn't tend to cover the stuff that doesn't mean conflict.

[burningpet]

That doesn't mean you bomb them dude. Israel's actions with that gaza flotilla were declared illegal & condemned. Do you think Ukraine could weather the fallout without the US in its back pocket like Israel?


They did greatorder, but everyone's fresh outta trust when it comes to Russia and what it says.


Yeah yeah guardian, was discussed. They also paid reparations.

"In July 2011, the UN investigative committee said that the Israeli naval blockade of Gaza was legal but that Israel used excessive force and should have waited to enforce the blockade closer to the shoreline. It also concluded that Turkey should have taken action to try to prevent the flotilla from taking place."

(I am obviously disregarding the anti-zionist, possibly anti-semitic UNHRC report.)

"There exist serious questions about the conduct, true nature and objectives of the flotilla organizers, particularly IHH." The commission recognized that the IDF were met with "organized and violent resistance from a group of passengers" upon boarding the vessel and therefore force was necessary for purposes of self-defense, but said, "the loss of life and injuries resulting from the use of force by Israeli forces during the take-over of the Mavi Marmara was unacceptable."

You see, here is a debate between facts and opinion. Fact: The UN report found that aboard the mavi marmara were actually a bunch of violent extremists that were equipped with knives, iron bars and clubs, waiting for IDF soldiers in order to clash in a violent battle. after the soldiers rappelled down to the boat, some of the IHH memebrs hijacked the first soldiers guns relying on their knowledge that the soldiers rappelled not expecting to face violence, so the other soldiers were forced immediately to get rid of the threat.
Opinion: IDF shouldn't have killed those poor terrorists.

As for Ukraine, obviously this envoy is just a russian ruse. if they really wanted to help the civilians there, all russia need to do is to stop arming rebel groups/send soldiers that make those civilians lives a living hell.

And even if its only food and "honest" cargo aboard that envoy that is directed at assisting rebels/civilian clothed russian soldiers, it should still be stopped. why encourage the prolonging of the terrorist rebellion?

[Ukrainian Ranger]

Heh. Someone do understand that sending food\fuel\whatever else there will result in a longer conflict and more civilian sufferings

I am not the only one "heartless monster" here

[Mr. Strange]

No, you and burningpet really go well together.

[GrizzlyAdamz]

You are stretching to find difficulties where none exist.  The ICRC does this sort of thing all the time.

Show me an example where the ICRC has put together 200 truck drivers & gotten permission in, what, a 24 hour time frame?
Not just put together, but accomplished their 100-mile trek across a border into a war-zone & delivered their goods.
If I ask too much here, I'd say instead your initial assertion was indefensible.
"the supplies would already be delivered"


Otherwise I'll most likely eat my words.

[mainiac]

Show me an example where the ICRC has put together 200 truck drivers & gotten permission in, what, a 24 hour time frame?

Show me an example of Russia actually getting the trucks there in 24 hours.  You are comparing to an alternative that doesn't exist.

I'm sure the civilians feel very nice that the food is sitting on the border for photo ops.  If Russia actually gave a shit about the civilians this would look very different.

Also, fun fact, the IRCR has been operating in the rebel regions since April: http://www.icrc.org/eng/resources/documents/fact-figures/08-04-ukraine-activites-response-crises.htm