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[Sergarr]

Dividing Russia? Not on my watch. Last time that happened, we got conquered and vassaled by Mongols for 300+ years, which, I can tell you, was not good.

And where are the Mongols now?

Mostly outside of Russia. And not raiding our cities every five years or so, thanks to our predecessors.

Dividing Russia? Not on my watch. Last time that happened, we got conquered and vassaled by Mongols for 300+ years, which, I can tell you, was not good.

*Facepalms*
I see. You are afraid that Mongolia will do that trick again. And you need Pitin to not see that happen

PS. Russia was never vassalized by Mongols, Russia was created by Peter the Great few centuries after Mongolian empire ceased to exist

PPS. If you talk about Muscovy, you were vassalized by Tatars  (Golden Horde) not by Mongols

It's not limited to Mongols. I do not want to see my country divided, Russians fighting Russians, cities burned... No one Russian wants that.
That's why we've always adamant about throwing away any foreign intruders in our country. That's why Napoleon lost.

And they were Mongols, calling them Tatars is very much incorrect.

[Guardian G.I.]

PPS. If you talk about Muscovy, you were vassalized by Tatars  (Golden Horde) not by Mongols

The Golden Horde is a remnant state which came into being after the collapse of Genghis Khan's Mongolian Empire upon his death.

And in the very end, the Mongols were chased out and the leftover states were conquered.
However, there are no animosity towards Mongolia in Russia, probably because there hasn't been any wars between them since. Maybe if the Western powers didn't repeatedly start wars against Russia, there wouldn't be any animosity between Russia and the West right now.

Maybe if people didn't lap up the tripe pro-Kremlin newspapers and media outlets are force feeding them there wouldn't be any animosity between Russia and the West right now.

For some reason, Russia didn't invade the whole of Europe from the Baltic to the Black Seas for various noble reasons, and it certainly didn't do it repeatedly, with European territory being devastated during every Russian invasion.

[Owlbread]

Mostly outside of Russia. And not raiding our cities every five years or so, thanks to our predecessors.

I know, but the descendents of the people that originally subjugated Russia are actually under Russian control living in autonomous Republics. It will be a good day when the likes of Buryatia can be independent.

For some reason, Russia didn't invade the whole of Europe from the Baltic to the Black Seas for various noble reasons, and it certainly didn't do it repeatedly, with European territory being devastated during every Russian invasion.

Again, more unnecessary tripe. I notice you completely ignored what I said, but how can you actually respond to that when all you have is vague stuff about historical invasions?

[LordSlowpoke]

still, it's a more or less perfect example of countries which coexisted only because there was a tyrant oppressing everyone equally

And look at how successful that was.

uh it was pretty much the most successful socialist as in dictatorial socialist state europe has ever seen and probably will see unless someplace in the nordics flips its shit somehow

it collapsed due to a succession problem, if tito didn't fuck up the bare basics of authoritarianism the country would have probably continued to exist and fared decently well

There are ways of Russia dividing into constituent nations though that do not need to involve ethnic cleansing and violence.

problem is, russians are pretty decent at this whole assimilation business and the number of nations you can divide it into is falling rather swiftly unless you want to do disproportionate kinda things

you've got my interest though, what exactly do you want to divide it into?

That would only happen if the Russian government tried to stop the division from happening. The safest way to do it is to cooperate, as happened for the most part during the collapse of the USSR.

aaaaand the person who allowed that to happen is widely considered a traitor to the motherland

yeah, i know, propaganda, but this is not exactly going to go well unless you figure out a way to drastically change the mindset of a large part of a large country

Notice - when countries were allowed by Russia to become independent things went by without much bloodshed, "much" being the keyword. When Russia tried to stop Chechnya from becoming independent, thousands and thousands of Russians were killed and the Russian nation was traumatised. Let's not even go there with how the Chechens were after that of course.

didn't we already discuss this? it's the difference between warsaw pact-tier states (effectively soviet vassals) and autonomous republics (considered russian territory) which caused the whole chechen mess, and as you pointed out to me before they never got their independence peacefully either - which never got any sort of friendly relations going on, which provoked the second war, really you know this part i shouldn't have to explain

thing is vassals were freed and russian territory suddenly stopping being russian wasn't exactly palatable

[Ukrainian Ranger]

It's not limited to Mongols. I do not want to see my country divided, Russians fighting Russians, cities burned... No one Russian wants that.
That's why we've always adamant about throwing away any foreign intruders in our country. That's why Napoleon lost.

And they were Mongols, calling them Tatars is very much incorrect.

You know. Russian fighting Russians happens now. Right now. In exactly that moment. Doesn't look like you Russians  care or do anything to stop that.

Or you mean after you kill few tens(hundreds)  of thousands of  Ethnic Russian Ukrainian Patriots  and annex "core Russian territory" (Ukraine) killings will stop because everything is in one big Great Russia?

[Owlbread]

uh it was pretty much the most successful socialist as in dictatorial socialist state europe has ever seen and probably will see unless someplace in the nordics flips its shit somehow

it collapsed due to a succession problem, if tito didn't fuck up the bare basics of authoritarianism the country would have probably continued to exist and fared decently well

This is the problem. Authoritarian dictatorships just don't last, and when they collapse it tends to be explosive.

problem is, russians are pretty decent at this whole assimilation business and the number of nations you can divide it into is falling rather swiftly unless you want to do disproportionate kinda things

you've got my interest though, what exactly do you want to divide it into?

I'd have to consider it carefully. I think the constituent nations of Russia i.e. the autonomous Republics are a no-brainer, they should be independent states, but areas like Siberia should have full control of their own resources or independence.

aaaaand the person who allowed that to happen is widely considered a traitor to the motherland

yeah, i know, propaganda, but this is not exactly going to go well unless you figure out a way to drastically change the mindset of a large part of a large country

Everything I'm proposing would require a miracle to become even remotely possible.

[Sergarr]

...
I'd have to consider it carefully. I think the constituent nations of Russia i.e. the autonomous Republics are a no-brainer, they should be independent states, but areas like Siberia should have full control of their own resources or independence.
...

Why should they become independent? Is this independence some kind of Holy Grail for you? Do you think that everyone being independent from each other would be the best? Are you an anarchist?

It's not limited to Mongols. I do not want to see my country divided, Russians fighting Russians, cities burned... No one Russian wants that.
That's why we've always adamant about throwing away any foreign intruders in our country. That's why Napoleon lost.

And they were Mongols, calling them Tatars is very much incorrect.

You know. Russian fighting Russians happens now. Right now. In exactly that moment. Doesn't look like you Russians  care or do anything to stop that.

Or you mean after you kill few tens(hundreds)  of thousands of  Ethnic Russian Ukrainian Patriots  and annex "core Russian territory" (Ukraine) killings will stop because everything is in one big Great Russia?

Ukrainians are what Russians would be without the Mongol invasion and vassalisation. So no, I do not consider you kind as Russians.

[Owlbread]

Why should they become independent? Is this independence some kind of Holy Grail for you? Do you think that everyone being independent from each other would be the best?

Yes, yes. I think it is better for the world to return to its natural state in order to achieve lasting peace.

Are you an anarchist?

Possibly, yes. I don't know, I'm trying to figure that out.

[smjjames]

Central Russia is called Central because it was the forming place of Russia. You know, I could ask you why Central England is in South East of the British Isles...

Til Moscow is in Siberia.......

[Guardian G.I.]

For some reason, Russia didn't invade the whole of Europe from the Baltic to the Black Seas for various noble reasons, and it certainly didn't do it repeatedly, with European territory being devastated during every Russian invasion.

Again, more unnecessary tripe. I notice you completely ignored what I said, but how can you actually respond to that when all you have is vague stuff about historical invasions?

The animosity between Russia and the West isn't the invention of bloodthirsty Putin's/Stalin's/"insert last name here" propaganda - it's based on centuries of endless conflicts which were not started by Russia.

It's rather hard to incite hatred against someone who hasn't been at your throat. The best course of action for everyone would be the West simply ceasing their attempts at subjugating Russia and just doing their own business without doing stuff like putting missiles at the Russian border. Simple peaceful coexistence, without any mandatory "westernizations". Unfortunately, it's not even remotely feasible.

[Dutchling]

So what you're saying is Russians live in the past?

[Sergarr]

Why should they become independent? Is this independence some kind of Holy Grail for you? Do you think that everyone being independent from each other would be the best?

Yes, yes. I think it is better for the world to return to its natural state in order to achieve lasting peace.

Are you an anarchist?

Possibly, yes. I don't know, I'm trying to figure that out.

Natural state of humanity is hunterers-gatherers with average life span of 25-30 years. You cannot possibly want that, do you?

[Owlbread]

The animosity between Russia and the West isn't the invention of bloodthirsty Putin's/Stalin's/"insert last name here" propaganda - it's based on centuries of endless conflicts which were not started by Russia.

The history of which is being exploited by Putin for propaganda.

It's rather hard to incite hatred against someone who hasn't been at your throat. The best course of action for everyone would be the West simply ceasing their attempts at subjugating Russia and just doing their own business without doing stuff like putting missiles at the Russian border. Simple peaceful coexistence, without any mandatory "westernizations". Unfortunately, it's not even remotely feasible.

The West is not trying to subjugate Russia, this is your fantasy. Allowing LGBT people to have the same rights as everyone else and having a democratic society isn't "mandatory westernisation". That's just basic human rights.

Natural state of humanity is hunterers-gatherers with average life span of 25-30 years. You cannot possibly want that, do you?

Wanting the earth to return to its natural state does not necessarily involve wanting to return to a hunter-gatherer society. I certainly don't want that, no. By "natural state" I mean all the nations and peoples of the world should either be independent or have maximum autonomy. That is the natural state of things. Once we've gotten that out of our system there will be no more nationalist conflicts apart from various "pan" movements like Pan-Slavicism, Pan-Africanism, Pan-Germanism etc.

[Guardian G.I.]

So what you're saying is Russians live in the past?

With such a historical record of bloody wars, there are no guarantees that it won't happen again.
It's simple precaution, and not living in the past.

[smjjames]

Dividing Russia? Not on my watch. Last time that happened, we got conquered and vassaled by Mongols for 300+ years, which, I can tell you, was not good.

Wasn't that before Muscovy united the Russian lands anyway?

Also, the Mongols steamrolled everybody who crossed them, so.....