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[ivze]

Russian Ministry of Defence breefing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6shA7cOUw4Y
They imply, MH17 Boeing 777 was shot down by SU25. The plane, despite being an air-to-surface attack aircraft, can make a temporary jump up to 10000m and use R60MK short-range air-o-air missles, that it carries as a self-defence weapon.

[10ebbor10]

But why would they want to hide the evidence of the missile? Knowing what weapon was used makes little sense if all possible perpetrators have it.

[Mictlantecuhtli]

But why would they want to hide the evidence of the missile? Knowing what weapon was used makes little sense if all possible perpetrators have it.

.. Missiles have serial numbers, manufacturer numbers, armory numbers, various identifiers, microchips, more microchips for radar stuff. Nothing you want the world to find out, especially since you can literally link a missile back to its original armory.

[Ukrainian Ranger]

Russians speaking about shelling cities is beyond hypocrisy. Ukrainian army is hundreds times more careful than Russian Army ever was in Chechnya. Look at the condition of liberated cities, they are mostly intact. And we pay for that with lives of Ukrainian soldiers

Plus, Russian army(so called insurgents and rebels) happily shell Ukrainian cities to blame Ukrainian army. Anything that fell far from from actual from, close to center of a city, is, obviously, not Ukrainian. Our army has no reason to do that.

[Dutchling]

Not to mention that without Russia there wouldn't be any shelling in the first place -.-'

[smjjames]

Russian Ministry of Defence breefing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6shA7cOUw4Y
They imply, MH17 Boeing 777 was shot down by SU25. The plane, despite being an air-to-surface attack aircraft, can make a temporary jump up to 10000m and use R60MK short-range air-o-air missles, that it carries as a self-defence weapon.

What would Ukraine possibly hope to achieve by shooting down a passenger aircraft? Still doesn't explain the behavior of the rebels in tampering with the site. If the rebels weren't the ones who did it, why would they tamper with the site and hide stuff? There are several stretches of logic there.

[Loud Whispers]

I'm sorry but people with their eyes open knew that Russia was supplying the separatists before the plane was shot down.  The US wasn't directing flights away for shits and giggles.  That you chose to ignore this doesn't give you grounds to criticize those who knew before the plane was shot down.  If anything, the reverse is true.

It is very safe to assume Russia is supplying the rebels with weapons but without concrete proof or an admission from Putin's naughty cabinet it's a useless assumption that serves only to stoke the coals of war. There is also the possibility that it was a stolen Ukrainian missile. There is also the fact that the Russians weren't the ones who shot down the plane.

If there is no bias, the level of excitement is justified and you agree that the Russian actions are reprehensible, what complaint is left to issue against the sensational reporting of the Daily Mail?  I agree that they are quite the fishwrapper much of the time but even fishwrapper can get things right.

Sensational reporting is the criticism unto its own, it is very easy to report on a tragedy without caricaturing Russia as a mass murderer shooting down civilian aeroplanes. The separatists escape scrutiny, the Russians see the West looking like they're about to invade them again and Europe looms over yet more wonderful rounds of sanctions and war. Hell, as we speak the invasion of Gaza generally goes unnoticed because people would rather listen to sensationalized reports of the 'slaughter in the sky.'

Not to mention that without Russia there wouldn't be any shelling in the first place -.-'

Yes, blame the victims of your governments aggression.

Calm down mainiac, this sort of heightened passion serves only to mar the issue entirely. The separatists have proven more than enough in independent polls that they do not want to be a part of the current Ukrainian government. Interestingly enough, a large portion of them also do not want to be a part of Russia and do not support the armed separatists. There are many perspectives that warrant attention, there are usually never just two sides; this debacle alone has shown it is not just Russia vs America, it is the seperatists vs the new Ukrainian government with both respective hegemonies exerting their influence whilst the EU faffs about. As to your point Dutchling, that's highly unlikely. The new Ukrainian government seemed more than intent on pissing off the Russiaphone Ukrainians by making Ukrainian the sole state language, by pissing off Russia in favour of the EU and falling under the gaze of the eye of Putin. Hindsight's a bitch, but I'm surprised even by how much I was surprised when Putin secured the black sea fleet by annexing Crimea.

[ivze]

What would Ukraine possibly hope to achieve by shooting down a passenger aircraft?

This is quite evident: prove that the all the pro-Russian guys and Russia herself shut down planes and are thus dangerous, and it's time for NATO help.

[Owlbread]

Russians speaking about shelling cities is beyond hypocrisy. Ukrainian army is hundreds times more careful than Russian Army ever was in Chechnya. Look at the condition of liberated cities, they are mostly intact. And we pay for that with lives of Ukrainian soldiers.

Spoiler: Yes, those damn dirty Ukrainians shelling innocent ethnic Russian civilians indiscriminately in their homes. All they wanted was democratic representation and independence/autonomy, right? They could have negotiated, they didn't have to invade. Negotiated more autonomy. They didn't need to put the tanks in. Ukraine brought this on themselves, right? I mean it's not like Novorossiya was ever a part of Ukra- (click to show/hide)

HYPOCRISY

This is quite evident: prove that the all the pro-Russian guys and Russia herself shut down planes and are thus dangerous, and it's time for NATO help.

How do you feel about the conspiracy theory that the Russian apartment bombings in the late 90s were organised by FSB to turn the international community against the Chechens, win the support of the Russian public and frame the second war as part of the War on Terror?

[Loud Whispers]

This is quite evident: prove that the all the pro-Russian guys and Russia herself shut down planes and are thus dangerous, and it's time for NATO help.

The West's already promised help. The only thing they would stand to gain from it would be forcing the West to intervene, but I trust the Ukrainian government not to be that evil. They're generally opposed to targeting civilians, plus the plane was flying over rebel-held territory so if the Ukrainian government did do it they'd have a hard time covering it up.

[Mictlantecuhtli]

Calm down mainiac, this sort of heightened passion serves only to mar the issue entirely. The separatists have proven more than enough in independent polls that they do not want to be a part of the current Ukrainian government. Interestingly enough, a large portion of them also do not want to be a part of Russia and do not support the armed separatists. There are many perspectives that warrant attention, there are usually never just two sides; this debacle alone has shown it is not just Russia vs America, it is the seperatists vs the new Ukrainian government with both respective hegemonies exerting their influence whilst the EU faffs about. As to your point Dutchling, that's highly unlikely. The new Ukrainian government seemed more than intent on pissing off the Russiaphone Ukrainians by making Ukrainian the sole state language, by pissing off Russia in favour of the EU and falling under the gaze of the eye of Putin. Hindsight's a bitch, but I'm surprised even by how much I was surprised when Putin secured the black sea fleet by annexing Crimea.

Yeah, having your own internal affairs and decisions would upset a dictator who thinks he owns the country, thanks for understanding why Russia is murdering people in Ukraine currently. You've also completely mischaracterized this arguement, again, as I figured. We've beaten this to death, Russian was a secondary language on-law in these areas and was not going to be changed. But thanks for playing into the RT propaganda? I guess changing official languages is reason enough to go murdering people.

What would Ukraine possibly hope to achieve by shooting down a passenger aircraft?

This is quite evident: prove that the all the pro-Russian guys and Russia herself shut down planes and are thus dangerous, and it's time for NATO help.

So, are you going to be making excuses or ignoring the proof when it comes out that Putin's russia is responsible for this?

[Owlbread]

Ukrainian was always the sole state language of Ukraine, Loud Whispers. What the Ukrainian government actually did was they got rid of a law that basically allowed a Russophone region in Ukraine to use Russian in all official capacities and not need to use Ukrainian. That also went for other minority languages like Hungarian.

[Mictlantecuhtli]

Remember: Changing official languages is reason enough to murder people in another sovereign nation.

[smjjames]

Remember: Changing official languages is reason enough to murder people in another sovereign nation.

Give examples besides Ukraine, or are you being sarcastic?

[Mictlantecuhtli]

Yeah, I support Russia invading and destabilizing a sovereign nation over fantasy delusions of victimization because Ukraine's official language is Ukrainian.