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[MonkeyHead]

To me, seeing as someone who is 16 can join the armed forced, pay tax and legally reproduce, it seems fairly logical that they could vote.

[TD1]

I don't particularly care what they can or cannot do with or to themselves. It's when their decisions effect everyone else that we should be concerned.

[palsch]

See, I see voting as one of the most fundamental rights in our current system of government. We need strong barrier to denying someone it, considerably stronger than we currently have (eg, prisoner voting). Denying a segment of the population - a segment otherwise recognised as having full mental and personal autonomy in many ways - the vote requires some extraordinary cause.

Screening for simple immaturity doesn't make sense to me, especially with an age limit at 18.


And for the record, this isn't a partisan position for me. I'm been pushed away from the Yes campaign considerably over time, moving from a strong Yes to Don't Know, believing independence is not likely to be in Scotland(or Britain as a whole)'s political or economic interest and with too much uncertainty to say socially. I'm in Don't Know because I think the ideological question (national identity and political sovereignty) is probably more important than the practical interests, and I don't have a personal position on that and don't feel I really should as an outsider.

[Owlbread]

And for the record, this isn't a partisan position for me. I'm been pushed away from the Yes campaign considerably over time, moving from a strong Yes to Don't Know, believing independence is not likely to be in Scotland(or Britain as a whole)'s political or economic interest and with too much uncertainty to say socially. I'm in Don't Know because I think the ideological question (national identity and political sovereignty) is probably more important than the practical interests, and I don't have a personal position on that and don't feel I really should as an outsider.

The difficulty arises when you try to consider what way you would vote on independence as an outsider, rather than imagining yourself as a person living in Scotland.

It is very hard to judge whether independence would be terrible for Britain or if it would be manageable. I do know that there will be both good and bad things to come of it; the good things would mostly depend on the success of Scotland. If Scotland does become a more progressive society, as I hope it will, reducing our military spending while allowing for things like free university education, greater child care provision etc then perhaps people living in England or elsewhere in the UK will be able to look North at the life we live and ask why they can't enjoy the same thing.

That is already happening to a lesser extent right now, but people still write it off as "the Scots are living off our money" when in fact that is not true. With independence we can prove that.

[MonkeyHead]

I just really hope that if you guys do get independence, that you don't fuck it up. If you were to fuck it up, it would kill any will to independence here in Wales, and also remove any chance of Westminster even considering offering us a choice on it.

Interesting times we live in, huh?

[Owlbread]

I just really hope that if you guys do get independence, that you don't fuck it up. If you were to fuck it up, it would kill any will to independence here in Wales, and also remove any chance of Westminster even considering offering us a choice on it.

Interesting times we live in, huh?

Yet as we've said before if things go well then perhaps Wales may need to reconsider its position in the Union. I hope there'll be more people like this in Wales in the future.

This is a new YesScotland campaign video.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

I don't particularly care what they can or cannot do with or to themselves. It's when their decisions effect everyone else that we should be concerned.

They are part of "everyone", ergo, if it is possible for them to have a say, they should be allowed one. The mid to late teens are the point of transition to adulthood, and should be allowed to actually ply that trade before they get there in full.

[Owlbread]

That worked, but the voice wasn't all that clear. I t sounds like she said 'Because herp ba bithday, yaaaaaay!

It's her accent. She said "Because Biffy's voting Yes, to independence, Yeeeeeeeeees, to independence" etc.

If you have difficulty with that, take a stab at some Scottish hip hop.

[TD1]

I don't particularly care what they can or cannot do with or to themselves. It's when their decisions effect everyone else that we should be concerned.

They are part of "everyone", ergo, if it is possible for them to have a say, they should be allowed one. The mid to late teens are the point of transition to adulthood, and should be allowed to actually ply that trade before they get there in full.

It is also possible for a 12 year old to have a fully backed up say on political matters.

Also, happy 12th everyone!

Here's part of last year's parade:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TuD9FROXWt4

[MetalSlimeHunt]

I don't particularly care what they can or cannot do with or to themselves. It's when their decisions effect everyone else that we should be concerned.

They are part of "everyone", ergo, if it is possible for them to have a say, they should be allowed one. The mid to late teens are the point of transition to adulthood, and should be allowed to actually ply that trade before they get there in full.

It is also possible for a 12 year old to have a fully backed up say on political matters.

Backing is not the issue here. Backing can occur at any point after young childhood, or not at all for some people here. The issue is inducting people who are obviously capable of making serious decisions (as shown by all the other things they are permitted to do) to the democratic process, which is the foundation of a modern society.

[Owlbread]

It is also possible for a 12 year old to have a fully backed up say on political matters.

Also, happy 12th everyone!

Here's part of last year's parade:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TuD9FROXWt4

A Yes Scotland poster made it to Northern Ireland somehow the other day.

Spoiler: It's a shame where it ended up (click to show/hide)

The Orange Walk in Glasgow took place the other week. A number of cars with Yes Scotland stickers were vandalised. One guy I know of had one of his wing mirrors smashed off because it was the only car in the street with a Vote Yes sticker on it.

Those Loyalist bonfires can be quite telling though, unfortunately. Check out this one allegedly in Antrim:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I think I can make out the flag of Palestine on that one, as well as India.

A friend of mine said he saw a guy on facebook trying to justify some of the messages on that bonfire, specifically the "We're not racist we just don't like cotton picking n*****" by explaining that the "cotton picking n*****" are an Irish band that Loyalists do not like.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

What in the hell. Since when are there even a significant number of black people in either Ireland?

[Owlbread]

What in the hell. Since when are there even a significant number of black people in either Ireland?

The total black population of Northern Ireland in 2001 according to the census was 255. In Scotland there's about 37,000 Afro-Scots, but we have 5 times the population of Northern Ireland.

The black population of my county in Scotland is probably under 20 at the most out of a population of 150,000, yet when I was growing up it was far, far rarer to hear my classmates describe a black person as a "black person" than hear them just use the N word. I remember guys in High School talking about playing football against another school from the Lowlands and they talked about "that n****" on the other team like it was nothing, like it was just what black people were called.

Some of the most racist populations are those with the least experience of the targeted ethnic group. I think black people in that case just stand for all people who aren't white and Northern Irish/British; racists don't tend to differentiate.

Afro-Scottish history is fascinating, though. The first black professional association footballer in the world was half Grenadian, half Scottish and the first black association footballer in the whole world to play at an international level played for Scotland back in the 1870s. He was half Orcadian, half Guianese.

[TD1]

I don't particularly care what they can or cannot do with or to themselves. It's when their decisions effect everyone else that we should be concerned.

They are part of "everyone", ergo, if it is possible for them to have a say, they should be allowed one. The mid to late teens are the point of transition to adulthood, and should be allowed to actually ply that trade before they get there in full.

It is also possible for a 12 year old to have a fully backed up say on political matters.

Backing is not the issue here. Backing can occur at any point after young childhood, or not at all for some people here. The issue is inducting people who are obviously capable of making serious decisions (as shown by all the other things they are permitted to do) to the democratic process, which is the foundation of a modern society.

And a twelve year old can't make a serious decision?

As for the bonfire, it's just something people from the estates do. It's not Loyalist racism, it's just racism. They have an opportunity to make a big fire. I wonder what the rough estates of Scotland would plaster on things if given the chance? If they're loyalist it's mere chance, and nothing to do with the orange order or loyalism. The orange order march and play instruments. It's a family event, and the Republicans have their equivalent.

As for the Orange walk in Scotland, I had heard of such things. There was a girl gashed by a bottle whilst watching a parade, if I recall correctly. Not the Orange men who did it though, but some of the Scottish.

[Owlbread]

As for the Orange walk in Scotland, I had heard of such things. There was a girl gashed by a bottle whilst watching a parade, if I recall correctly. Not the Orange men who did it though, but some of the Scottish.

The majority of Orangemen in Scotland are Scottish.