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[Owlbread]

Can you tell me what her response was? I'm getting NO sound from that video.

There is a little sound icon in the top left you can press, if that does not work I will investigate further.

Well, that's just not fair. And quite obviously vote-grasping.

And the countless attempts by Unionist parties to extend the referendum franchise to Scots living in the rest of the UK (who are mostly Unionist with some exceptions) was not vote-grasping? It's something political parties do. In this case if it is vote grasping it is also extending the franchise and making our country more democratic. Our current 16 and 17 year olds will make up the bulk of our adult workforce upon independence in 2016.

Can we say the same for extending the franchise for a vote on independence to people who do not actually live in this country, something based on ethnic nationalist lines? If you're born here or have Scottish blood you should have a vote or something, according to these people. How is that in any way constructive or helpful to our society?

[LordSlowpoke]

so to simplify

your vote grasping is good

their vote grasping is bad

correct?

[Owlbread]

so to simplify

your vote grasping is good

their vote grasping is bad

correct?

Yes. Our vote grasping actually extends the franchise and makes the country more democratic. Their vote grasping does absolutely nothing and sets a bad precedent for our democracy to follow. The Liberals were accused of "vote grasping" for giving the vote to the working classes and women at the turn of the century. Were they actually looking to get more votes? Probably. Does that really matter in the big scheme of things? No.

[LordSlowpoke]

if it doesn't matter then why do you mention it?

good grief it's like you're getting defensive for no reason

wait are you saying scottish women and working classes do not have the vote

[Owlbread]

Spoiler: In response to LordSlowpoke (click to show/hide)

if it doesn't matter then why do you mention it?

...Because TheDwarfyOne brought it up (it's a good point of discussion and I am thankful to him for it, I enjoy talking about it) and I thought I should clear things up? He should be thankful anyway, many polls I have seen have shown a majority support for the Union among 16-17 year olds. As I said earlier, the demographic most supportive of independence is people in their 20s.

wait are you saying scottish women and working classes do not have the vote

Pardon? I think there has been a degree of confusion here. They didn't in 1900 when the Liberals were in government, they enfranchised those groups progressively over a period of 20 years thereafter.

Also, as in 2009, the Scottish government has now pledged to provide medical support to the citizens of the Gaza Strip, with Scottish hospitals offering to treat any victims they can. Specialist medical care will be provided when medical evaluation of the victims becomes possible. They have also condemned the Gaza blockade and called for an end to the rocket attacks and air strikes on both sides.

The reason why I'm saying this is that this is a little glimpse of what Scottish foreign policy could be like in the next 4-5 years if we are independent.

[TD1]

If your vote grasping involves making 16 year olds who are easily susceptible to propaganda and pressure (Such as that shown in your concert) have a vote then it is bad vote grasping. There's a reason there's a voting age limit. Hell, I'd barely trust a 16 year old to shave never mind vote knowledgeably and maturely on a very important matter. Come on, how many 16 year olds would you call mature and able to make a rational decision in politics?

[Darvi]

Every demographic is susceptible to propaganda and pressure.

[MonkeyHead]

At 18 you are legally allowed to be a politically ignorant dumbass if you wish.

[Owlbread]

If your vote grasping involves making 16 year olds who are easily susceptible to propaganda and pressure (Such as that shown in your concert)

A man waving a Yes flag is now propaganda and pressure. Those poor, vulnerable 16 and 17 year olds, their minds have been corrupted. Something about that lassie tells me she had made her mind up before Biffy took the stage.

There's a reason there's a voting age limit. Hell, I'd barely trust a 16 year old to shave never mind vote knowledgeably and maturely on a very important matter. Come on, how many 16 year olds would you call mature and able to make a rational decision in politics?

Many. Conversely I have met many, many people over the age of 30 that I would call immature and are not able to make a rational decision in politics. As a Northern Irish person surely you should know this? The tragedy of the last 50 years (people killing each-other and innocents over politics and religion) in Northern Ireland is a prime example of that.

[TD1]

Yep. Not quite as much as a young teenager though. How do ya think you get teenage smokers who began being influenced by their friends? That's all this is. Down with SNP! They're forcing our children to become chain smokers and, more seriously, giving them a say in politics.

Mister Ninja: Yep. But you've lived a bit longer and had to make some choices past your blinking GCSEs. You'll tend to be a bit more mature. There's quite a difference between the average 16 year old and 18 year old. A foolish 16 year old might have decided to grow up.

Hello other Mister Ninja (Is this a common second name? ): That was but one instant of "propaganda and pressure." As I said, an example. And I think you'll agree that an immature 16 year old can grow into a mature 30 year old?

[Owlbread]

Hello other Mister Ninja (Is this a common second name? ): That was but one instant of "propaganda and pressure." As I said, an example. And I think you'll agree that an immature 16 year old can grow into a mature 30 year old?

Your presumption that all or the majority of 16 year olds are immature is quite unfair. There are people on this board younger than 16 who are more mature than too many people double their age. In Scotland 16 year olds can pay tax, get married, leave school and join the army. Many of my friends did exactly that. When I was 17 I remember some of them coming back from basic training and noticing how they'd changed. Why shouldn't they have a vote?

[TD1]

You mistake me. I do not say they're all immature. I say they're much more likely to be, and hence we give them a bit of time to grow up. Those that are mature will still be when vote comes around.

You bring up Northern Ireland? Even if all 16 year olds were Unionist I wouldn't want them having a vote in the running of the country. I'd be tempted, sure, which is why I understand why you did it. But it's a dangerous precedent.

[Descan]

You do know that's basically the same argument against giving women the vote, yes? "They're too emotional, they're like small children, they can't vote responsibly!"

[LordSlowpoke]

16 year olds are basically like small children

women are not small children no matter how basic you make it

unless you mean women as in females and that can be any age you want but that's stretching it like hell

[palsch]

Eh, I'd say that age based restrictions make sense, but having them lower than the sexual age of consent doesn't. Given Scotland now has both at 16 I think it's a fair change.