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[Loud Whispers]

You don't want to defend ukraine so well that there's no Ukraine left to live in after all the dust has settled.

[da_nang]

Then I suppose they should give the citizens a 24-hour deadline to evacuate the area unarmed before they start shelling it to oblivion. Sort out the citizens and the traitors.

[Ukrainian Ranger]

Or maybe they'll learn the lesson? Maybe they are so bold because there are no adequate answer to their crimes? Maybe they'll stop greeting Russian mercenaries in their towns knowing that this will mean bombs on their heads? Maybe they'll learn that one needs to evacuate from a war zone?

Instead they know that Ukrainian army are pacifist  and as long as there some civilian building nearby they can do ANYTHING

Besides citizens there are terrorized and killed by those "liberators". Doping nothing to stop them is the same as intentionally shooting civilians.

[Sergarr]

In other news, a helicopter choke full of Ukrainian high staff (and the general of the recently formed National Guard) was shot down.

Keep 'em coming, UR, keep 'em coming.

[smjjames]

Maybe the Ukraine generals should travel by car for a while. Some sources say 13 killed, some say 12, I saw one say 'at least 12', but numbers don't really matter here, point is a helicopter got shot down, people died, including a general.

Also, you'd think the Ukraine army would have at least done something to try to keep their helicopters from being shot down. Then again, tough tactical situation....

@UR: As has been said before, they are stuck between a rock and a hard place (or maybe between two rocks would be a better metaphor), they don't want to give Russia any excuses to actually invade, but at thesame time they want to stop the rebels.

Honestly though, it would be better to lay down arms and go through diplomatic dialogue, but one side or the other is essentially saying 'screw you' every time such an opportunity comes up.

[MorleyDev]

I have to wonder what the exchange rate is on a solider. Like, the ideal idea behind a military is that people voluntarily surrender numerous rights so that they can effectively defend the rights of people in their country.

So when the choice is between risking the life of a civilian or a soldier, the soldier should always get risked. What about 10 soldiers for a civilian? 100 soldiers? At some point cold hard pragmatism has to step in. And you have to take into account long-term costs. Allowing civilians to die now to stop the enemy would prevent that enemy killing further civilians in the future.

Times like this I wish I studied game theory more...

[smjjames]

I have to wonder what the exchange rate is on a solider. Like, the ideal idea behind a military is that people voluntarily surrender numerous rights so that they can effectively defend the rights of people in their country.

So when the choice is between risking the life of a civilian or a soldier, the soldier should always get risked. What about 10 soldiers for a civilian? 100 soldiers? At some point cold hard pragmatism has to step in. And you have to take into account long-term costs. Allowing civilians to die now to stop the enemy would prevent that enemy killing further civilians in the future.

Times like this I wish I studied game theory more...

Throw in the situation Ukraine is in and game theory gets a hell of a lot more complicated because from the little of game theory that I know of, it doesn't usually involve complex outside influences, just a basic situation with no outside influence that says if you do this, russia is likely to invade for example.

[Sergarr]

Err, the problem is that usually enemies do not want to kill your citizens. They just want some resources, or political control.

[Helgoland]

They do, though. Collateral damage is inflicted by both sides.

[Ukrainian Ranger]

In other news, a helicopter choke full of Ukrainian high staff (and the general of the recently formed National Guard) was shot down.

Keep 'em coming, UR, keep 'em coming.

That is exactly result of that doing nothing strategy.  When army is in place and serves as a target that is not good.

Honestly though, it would be better to lay down arms and go through diplomatic dialogue

You pull forces and get the same in other cities? Russian forces will just move on and we'll have the same in other regions.
WTF? What diplomatic dialogue? Are you guys mad? Putin you can have our country or what?

[smjjames]

In other news, a helicopter choke full of Ukrainian high staff (and the general of the recently formed National Guard) was shot down.

Keep 'em coming, UR, keep 'em coming.

That is exactly result of that doing nothing strategy.  When army is in place and serves as a target that is not good.

Honestly though, it would be better to lay down arms and go through diplomatic dialogue

You pull forces and get the same in other cities? Russian forces will just move on and we'll have the same in other regions.
WTF? What diplomatic dialogue? Are you guys mad? Putin you can have our country or what?

I never said anything about giving your country up to Russia, just that there should at least be diplomatic dialogue, you know, hear their grievances (not neccesarily Russias), etc. However, every time there has been an attempt at diplomatic dialogue or an attempt to start it, one side or the other (and I think both in a few cases) essentially says 'F**k you!'. So, I don't really see diplomatic dialogue happening anytime soon anyway.

[Ukrainian Ranger]

Diplomatic dialogue is possible only with Putin. It his forces supported by various local scum. He gives orders to them.

And we know what he want 0 Ukraine in his USSR 2.0. Or at least part of it. Can't see a room for diplomacy

[da_nang]

IIRC, the Yatsenyuk government was already ready to give them regional autonomy and Russian official language status. The separatists didn't give a fuck and continued with their shenanigans. They wanted more than what the government was willing to give.

I'd say the time for diplomatic dialogue came and went. The gloves are off now. A gun to their heads is the only language they'll understand, unfortunately.

[smjjames]

Diplomatic dialogue is possible only with Putin. It his forces supported by various local scum. He gives orders to them.

And we know what he want 0 Ukraine in his USSR 2.0. Or at least part of it. Can't see a room for diplomacy

The 'local scum' seem pretty uncontrolled for a group supposedly controlled by people that Putin gives orders to. They took Russian journalists hostage at one point FFS.

[Sergarr]

IIRC, the Yatsenyuk government was already ready to give them regional autonomy and Russian official language status. The separatists didn't give a fuck and continued with their shenanigans. They wanted more than what the government was willing to give.

I'd say the time for diplomatic dialogue came and went. The gloves are off now. A gun to their heads is the only language they'll understand, unfortunately.

Too bad the Ukrainian army can't unglue these gloves from their hands.