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[palsch]

Worth noting there have been security concerns about Estonia's system but they were brushed off. More worryingly, at least one exploit involves end-terminal validation. That is, to secure it you would have to secure absolutely every terminal used for voting in the country. That doesn't seem possible to me. Combine that with the more damaging but less likely server-end attacks and the potential for undetectable vote tampering...

Honestly, I don't see a way of having any e-voting system that doesn't leave a papertrail that maintains both anonymity and a way to validate the count. If you do away entirely with secret ballots it could work, but then you open yourself for mass bribery and intimidation.

(Trying to think if there are any cryptographic tricks you could use here but coming up blank at the moment. At least none that wouldn't require the removal of anonymity when votes are validated.)

[Sheb]

Plus, what's the point? Paper works fine, is cheaper and we don't vote that often anyway.

[miauw62]

Ok, now it does sound complicated... Sounds like you need a federal reform.

I think we tried. Several times, actually.

[Sheb]

6 times actually. How do you think we got there?

[vagel7]

Those experts have themselves publicly aknowledged that they were invited to the country and all of their expenses including travelling and work fees were paid by the party, which loses the most by having e-voting, Estonia's Central Party. Two books on the subject have also been funded by that party and other experts have said, that the systems are more secure than the ones that even banks use.

About the Central Party(Keskerakond). They have a very specific voter, namely very old people and Russians who do not want to fully integrate into Europe. Most who vote digitally are younger people who do not support that party. E-voting has also very strongly increased the percentage of people going voting, those are working people and youth, a demographic that is totally against the Central party's agenda.

The Central Party is despised for a number of reasons: Sell outs to Putin(Recently the head of the party made a statement in Russia saying the the Ukrainian government in Kiev is illegitimate), stupid things like municipal police which are used to tear down rivalry campaigns and annoy the general public and this unit is totally under the control of that party, a municipal store, TallinnTV which pretty much nobody watches and the people doing it are saying that it is awful(used for party propaganda and funded by the city), a municipal bank which will not even be capable of half the services our local banks or the Nordic banks can provide. The party is also working to stop the integration of immigrants into our society and it has worrying ties to Moscow.

The party controls the city of Tallinn and is making it into a pseudo-welfare city that can't hold itself up. The only reason that party has so much power is because of a lot of very old people voting for it and unintegrated Russians. Actually the only regions it wins in is Ida-Virumaa(pretty much Russian) and Tallinn.

Really, the amount of what the party is doing wrong and how bad the head of the party, Edgar Savisaar, is to Estonia is probably worth an entire book. Unfortunately I believe that international press on them is lacking.

PS: They also want to abolish a day in the city which is dedicated in memory to everybody who was influenced by the Soviet deportation, which they got a lot of criticism for and is another grab to gain popularity in the Russian spheres.

[Sheb]

Hey, what's your opinion on all those Russians that were in Estonia when the USSR broke and didn't get citizenship?

[vagel7]

Getting citizenships after the USSR broke and Estonia gained independence was quite difficult for everybody. Absolutely everybody who wanted to become a citizen of Estonia had to prove that they met all the requirements, even Estonians themselves. Anybody who failed to procure the necessary documents had to go through the exact same route as immigrants.

As there are two ways to gain Estonian citizenships: 1. One of the parents is a citizen of Estonia. 2. Naturalization. We do still have people who legitimately live here with Russian passports or grey passports(no citizenship) and to become a citizen one must speak the language, have lived here for over 5 years and pass an exam. But also drop his previous citizenship as double citizenships are not allowed.

I think that what mostly stopped immigrants that wanted an Estonian citizenship but didn't get it, was that they were not able to speak the language. The main problem that we have is that there is a very large percentage of our population which does not speak Estonian and even their children can't speak it or if they can, then very poorly.

It was a really tough time when we gained independence because we ripped ourselves totally free from Russia's influences and fully took course towards the west, Germany actually. We did a lot of painful but necessary reforms to become truly independent. If we would not have taken the course of action that we did, then we would of ended up in a worse situation.

I am actually really in favour of integration and actually currently one of my favourite politicians is the current minister of education who was born to Russian parents, but who's family has citizenships. He really favours a better educational system and much more integration, starting from the first years of school. We have Russian schools here, which are meant to aid in integration but they aren't working at all. That politician is actually very popular in the eyes of Estonian voters, he himself is Russian actually, but he is unpopular in the eyes of Russians.

[Sheb]

What percentage  of the population are non-citizens?

[vagel7]

By the census of 2011, 85.1% percent have Estonian citizenship, 6.95% Russian and 6.5% other.

[Sergarr]

By the census of 2011, 85.1% percent have Estonian citizenship, 6.95% Russian and 6.5% other.

These add up to 98.55%, where is the other 1.45%?

[Ukrainian Ranger]

Demonstrators storm president's HQ in Abkhazia
Interesting...

[vagel7]

Oh, sorry, 85,1% percent Estonian, 8,1% foreign citizenships(6,95% is Russian) and 6,5% without a citizenship. You can see that this adds up to 99.7% and this is because 3116 people did not mark their citizenship.

[palsch]

Those experts have themselves publicly aknowledged that they were invited to the country and all of their expenses including travelling and work fees were paid by the party, which loses the most by having e-voting, Estonia's Central Party. Two books on the subject have also been funded by that party and other experts have said, that the systems are more secure than the ones that even banks use.

Do you have sources for this? Even if not in English.

Thing is, being more secure than banks software isn't hard and doesn't say a thing about the system actually being secure. The potential hacks listed on that site make sense to me and I don't see a sufficient response to be reassuring. Assertions that the system is secure aren't a good counter to valid technical issues.

[Sheb]

I still don't get why the whole world doesn't switch to mandatory voting.

[lordcooper]

I still don't get why the whole world doesn't switch to mandatory voting.

I don't want people with no interest in or knowledge of politics to vote.