Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

A

A

A

A

A

A

A

A

[Sergarr]

There's plenty of anti-American sentiment in Europe.

((That might be stretching the definition of peaceful a bit, but...))

fascist mobs

Now explain to me how they are fascist.

They're using military force to take control of the area. That is, as far as remember, the definition of fascism.

All governments in war try to use military force to take control of land. Are they all fascist? Is USA fascist for occupying Iraq and Afghanistan?

[Guardian G.I.]

There's plenty of anti-American sentiment in Europe.

((That might be stretching the definition of peaceful a bit, but...))

fascist mobs

Now explain to me how they are fascist.

They're using military force to take control of the area. That is, as far as remember, the definition of fascism.

Today I learned that the absolute majority of countries in the history of mankind were fascist.

[GlyphGryph]

They're using military force to take control of the area. That is, as far as remember, the definition of fascism.

...no. Not even related. It's an ideology. And while large chunks of that ideology are most definitely popular among a lot of the modern-day Russians and Ukrainians, and it's almost undoubtedly popular among at least a subset of the pro-russian groups (as well as the anti-Russian ones), I honestly don't have any good evidence what the ideology of the people in control of those groups is. And fascism is a wide net with fuzzy boundaries, and every group puts their own spin on it.

From wikipedia, I think this is good summary about where the commonalities lie, but there are also ideologies that share these elements but probably wouldn't be fascist. You should probably read the whole article.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism

Fascist movements shared certain common features, including the veneration of the state, a devotion to a strong leader, and an emphasis on ultranationalism and militarism. Fascism views political violence, war, and imperialism as a means to achieve national rejuvenation,[6][9][10][11] and it asserts that stronger nations have the right to expand their territory by displacing weaker nations.[12]

The fascist view of a nation is of a single organic entity which binds people together by their ancestry and is a natural unifying force of people.[156] Fascism seeks to solve economic, political, and social problems by achieving a millenarian national rebirth, exalting the nation or race above all else, and promoting cults of unity, strength and purity

[scrdest]

They're using military force to take control of the area. That is, as far as remember, the definition of fascism.

...no. Not even related. It's an ideology. And while large chunks of that ideology are most definitely popular among a lot of the modern-day Russians and Ukrainians, and it's almost undoubtedly popular among at least a subset of the pro-russian groups (as well as the anti-Russian ones), I honestly don't have any good evidence what the ideology of the people in control of those groups is. And fascism is a wide net with fuzzy boundaries, and every group puts their own spin on it.

From wikipedia, I think this is good summary about where the commonalities lie, but there are also ideologies that share these elements but probably wouldn't be fascist. You should probably read the whole article.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism

Fascist movements shared certain common features, including the veneration of the state, a devotion to a strong leader, and an emphasis on ultranationalism and militarism. Fascism views political violence, war, and imperialism as a means to achieve national rejuvenation,[6][9][10][11] and it asserts that stronger nations have the right to expand their territory by displacing weaker nations.[12]

The fascist view of a nation is of a single organic entity which binds people together by their ancestry and is a natural unifying force of people.[156] Fascism seeks to solve economic, political, and social problems by achieving a millenarian national rebirth, exalting the nation or race above all else, and promoting cults of unity, strength and purity

So it's basically ultra-statist social-darwinism as applied to nations.

[GlyphGryph]

It's the ideology of a people who have had their lives and history crushed, and have put all their faith in the state to return them to a position of prominence in the world where they are part of a singular, strong, powerful, and lasting larger organism. It's the born-again evangelical for nations instead of religions.

fascist mobs

Now explain to me how they are fascist.

If I recall correctly, at one point you were arguing that the Maiden movement was fascist to its core, and I wouldn't mind you explaining this as well. There seem to be plenty of people on both sides of this issue who have no clue what fascism is, and simply use it to tar those they dislike.

Which is a problem because fascism is still a very real, very dangerous thing, and it's power is growing everywhere, and it needs to be opposed. Thinking that only the "other guys" can be fascists is nothing but a path to giving control of your own country to your own fascists.

[MorleyDev]

"veneration of the state, a devotion to a strong leader, and an emphasis on ultranationalism and militarism"

That sounds like...a good summation of everything wrong with the world actually.

So basically facism is about how the unenlightened masses cannot make the judgement call, so they should give up free will forever  so their voices won't be heard at all?
Display obedience, while never stepping out of line and blindly swear allegiance? Let your country control your mind? Let your country control your soul?

Well, guess they get to live in ignorance and purchase happiness. But when blood and sweat is the real cost, thinking ceases, the truth is lost. So don't you worry, you'll be told exactly what to do. Give people the lives they need, the righteous will succeed. The fires of greed will burn the weak, so make freedom obsolete. Making whole the fabric of society, collective consciousness controlled as you will see. Let your country control your soul.

[Sergarr]

"veneration of the state, a devotion to a strong leader, and an emphasis on ultranationalism and militarism"

That sounds like...a good summation of everything wrong with the world actually.

You forgot agressive religions, differences in life quality between the first and the third world, stupid politicians... and NSA.

[Darvi]

"veneration of the state, a devotion to a strong leader, and an emphasis on ultranationalism and militarism"

That sounds like...a good summation of everything wrong with the world actually.

That sounds like half the US actually. Also nice song there. Too bad cyborg ninjas won't have anything of it.

[MorleyDev]

Aren't most of those ultimately due to people following ultranationalism, militariasm, devotion to a strong leader, and veneration of the state in one way or another?

[GlyphGryph]

Aren't most of those ultimately due to people following ultranationalism, militariasm, devotion to a strong leader, and veneration of the state in one way or another?

Nah. While Fascism manages to be the combination of a large number of extremely terrible things, the world is just chock-full of terrible things that have nothing to do with fascism at all.

[MorleyDev]

Nah. While Fascism manages to be the combination of a large number of extremely terrible things, the world is just chock-full of terrible things that have nothing to do with fascism at all.

I wasn't saying fascism is the cause of them, but that those ideals are ultimately what you find when people think the "It's okay for the government to spy and violate your freedoms for your safety", "I do this because my boss tells me it's the best thing to do regardless of my own morals or opinions". So more saying that it seems like fascism is more the 'purest' form of them, not that all those things are done as acts of fascism.

[nenjin]

Aren't most of those ultimately due to people following ultranationalism, militariasm, devotion to a strong leader, and veneration of the state in one way or another?

Nah. While Fascism manages to be the combination of a large number of extremely terrible things, the world is just chock-full of terrible things that have nothing to do with fascism at all.

As an example, my Spanish uncle who lives in Germany once referred to Techno as "that fascist music."

It's a term all of Europe was exposed to, and over the years people have adapted it to lash out at political/social/cultural ideals they disagree with. I'm not saying Americans are any better. When we want to denigrate something in a way that sticks, we relate it to Nazism. I think it's more or less the same deal over there. Just replace "Nazi" with "Fascist."

[Darvi]

"Fascist."

Hag.

[Sheb]

I actually use fascist all the time in a tongue-in-cheek way. The bus is late? Fascist. The vending machine is out of sausages? Fascist. The bus is early and I miss it? Fascist. My teacher moves an exam? Facist. Fascists all the way!

[MorleyDev]

Speaking of fascists, voting in the UK tomorrow for the European Parliment members and UKIP have gotten disturbing amounts of press as of late. Most people I know are pretty steadfast against them, to the point of being more concerned that they don't get a majority than that Labour/Green/Conservative/LibDem do.

Here's hoping. On the bright side, Twitter did a good job of putting them in their place. 19 is my favourite.