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Author Topic: Sheb's European Megathread: Remove Feta!  (Read 1785676 times)

Comrade P.

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #5430 on: May 18, 2014, 02:23:41 pm »

@Owlbread

You see, I just can't get what do they actually want. You say in your post that Russians conquered the land they once owned. Right now, they are building their shacks in the middle of nowhere or right near to the villages (saw that myself in 2010) and then want government to make sure it is now completely legal. There is only a little sense about it - they really lack proper houses, but that should be solved somehow else I think. Then, they want the entire Crimean Republic (excluding Sevastopol) to be declared an ethnic autonomy. I respect their right to national self-determination, but they are about 10% of population. Their rights should be protected for sure, their language is one of the three governmental languages at last. But ethnic autonomy? A bit too much. Next, they want to be represented in government. Great initiative! Educate yourselves and rule the peninsula! Our government has no national quotes! But you don't want to see a yesterday farmer handling state budget, don't ya? And that's what they want exactly. No offence, but there are much less educated Tatars (Crimeans, whatever) than Ukrainians or Russians in Crimea right now.
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Mictlantecuhtli

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #5431 on: May 18, 2014, 02:24:55 pm »

No offence, but there are much less educated Tatars (Crimeans, whatever) than Ukrainians or Russians in Crimea right now.

You kinda let your media's bias slip in there a little.. So, Russia is just helping to govern people too stupid to govern themselves? Forgetting the rampant corruption issues and absolute lack of governmental and societal progress in the Kremlin, of course.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2014, 02:33:31 pm by Mictlantecuhtli »
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da_nang

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #5432 on: May 18, 2014, 02:26:40 pm »

Oh dear, Aleksandr Dugin in Finnish news.
Quote from: Finland Is Welcomed to A Greater Russian Eurasia
Nu har ni finländare en annan möjlighet. Ni kan välja mellan två identiteter, en västeuropeisk och en eurasiatisk. Ni kunde välja öst, rekommenderar Dugin.
"You Finns now have another opportunity. You can choose between two identities, a Western European and a Eurasian. You could choose East," recommends Dugin.

Yeah... Wait there for a while, Mr. Dugin, and I'll give you an answer after I've plugged in a few electric generators near a few war graves. I bet I could meet all of Finland's energy needs...
« Last Edit: May 18, 2014, 03:39:37 pm by da_nang »
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scrdest

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #5433 on: May 18, 2014, 02:30:59 pm »

All history between the two aside, why are Finnish news in Swedish?
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Tjoh

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #5434 on: May 18, 2014, 02:35:03 pm »

Because swedish still is one of the official languages of finland, and da_nang is probably either swedish or a swedish-speaking finn.
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Owlbread

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #5435 on: May 18, 2014, 02:36:14 pm »

« Last Edit: May 18, 2014, 02:39:32 pm by Owlbread »
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da_nang

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #5436 on: May 18, 2014, 02:36:28 pm »

All history between the two aside, why are Finnish news in Swedish?
Because I'm a Swedish-speaking Finn (on paper anyways, Swedish at heart), the 5-6% minority. The Yle Channel, as a public service company, is kind of obligated (by law I believe) to have content in Swedish alongside content in Finnish.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2014, 02:42:43 pm by da_nang »
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LordSlowpoke

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #5437 on: May 18, 2014, 02:36:56 pm »

Oh right... I see what you're trying to get at. Well, that was unexpected. Right, if I can clarify, if you look at the sentence "a bit like how European New Zealanders get behind Maori identity these days" - I was trying to highlight how even the "Imperialists" i.e. the white Europeans were starting to embrace Maori heritage. I was meaning it in the sense "Even European New Zealanders get behind Maori identity". I wasn't trying to exclude the countless other ethnic groups in New Zealand by referring to New Zealanders as solely Maori/European, I was trying to show a parallel with Crimea.

Surely you would be aware of that too, so I'm not sure why you were even making that point in the first place.

* LordSlowpoke snips quotes liberally

1) there's always chance of ignorance (tell me you haven't encountered people saying there exist monocultural colonial nations)
2) as a person who classifies themselves as european first and national never, i'm tired of people pointing out ethnicity as if it's important when honestly it's not

...Again, I don't doubt this. Don't you remember that link I posted yesterday or the day before about how this entire conflict is about gangsters? The thing is, gangsters are exploiting ethnic/nationalist conflict that already exists in Ukraine and I'm trying to show a way that this could be resolved. Admittedly, a way that accords with my own political ideology.

don't you remember that one gent in the... first? ukraine thread who insisted that before maidan there was no such thing as ethnic conflict and the whole thing was constructed on the spot

might have been avis but don't hold me responsible for this one
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Owlbread

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #5438 on: May 18, 2014, 02:44:49 pm »

1) there's always chance of ignorance (tell me you haven't encountered people saying there exist monocultural colonial nations)

Surely you would know that I'm not one of those people.

Quote
2) as a person who classifies themselves as european first and national never, i'm tired of people pointing out ethnicity as if it's important when honestly it's not

I'm sure that outlook would have been very handy in Yugoslavia or Rwanda or virtually every single conflict on the planet in the last millennium. Unfortunately, people didn't have it then and they don't have it now in Ukraine.

The fact that you even class yourself as "European" though betrays a kind of meta-national identity that separates you from your American cousins, showing that even you have some divisions written into your brain.

Quote
don't you remember that one gent in the... first? ukraine thread who insisted that before maidan there was no such thing as ethnic conflict and the whole thing was constructed on the spot

might have been avis but don't hold me responsible for this one

The issues with ethnic Russians in Ukraine have been long established, they've just been blown massively out of proportion by interference from the Russian government in the last few months.
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Sergarr

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #5439 on: May 18, 2014, 02:50:08 pm »

I'm sure that outlook would have been very handy in Yugoslavia or Rwanda or virtually every single conflict on the planet in the last millennium. Unfortunately, people didn't have it then and they don't have it now in Ukraine.
Now, now, let's not be hasty. I'm pretty sure the religion issues also heavily contributed to making wars happen.
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TD1

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #5440 on: May 18, 2014, 02:51:57 pm »

To simplify, war is over difference, greed, or both.
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Owlbread

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #5441 on: May 18, 2014, 02:55:55 pm »

Now, now, let's not be hasty. I'm pretty sure the religion issues also heavily contributed to making wars happen.

See, this is something I've been thinking about a lot recently. I've become more and more convinced of the fact that when people talk about religion starting wars, it's more like religion has been used as a tool (subconsciously or otherwise) by elites in national conflicts, or it has been a facet of a wider ethno-religious conflict. Examples include the Arab/Islamic Conquests, commonly seen as religious wars when they were far more distinctly ethno-religious e.g. Coptic Egyptians vs Muslim Arabs and so on.

To simplify, war is over difference, greed, or both.

And virtually always a combination of all of the above, though greed is far more necessary. Difference just serves as the justification for the greed.
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Comrade P.

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #5442 on: May 18, 2014, 02:59:09 pm »

@Owlbread (the quote massive is too big to cut it)
Speaking of problems of last 23 years, those shouldn't be referred to Russian government. Ukrainian government was in charge all along.

Karelians are russian-speaking locals, what do you even mean under "ethnic" Karelians?

Speaking of Affirmative Action, do you really think it's a good thing? You know, I can understand usual discrimination, but positive discrimination seems to be the thing I do not like. If they really think they are so concious and progressive they can form a government, they should prove it with some remarkable deeds, not just appeal to humanism. What have they done to represent themselves? Just said they got deported by Stalin? Almost any family in Russia suffered somehow from Stalin's repressions, and what?
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TD1

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #5443 on: May 18, 2014, 02:59:53 pm »

Hm. Debatable. Greed at the highest levels, usually. The common soldier doesn't see much profit from the greed, and so needs to believe they are righteous in what they do, as the enemy is a hideous barbarian who eats their children. Or somesuch.
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Guardian G.I.

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #5444 on: May 18, 2014, 03:04:43 pm »

I'm sure that outlook would have been very handy in Yugoslavia or Rwanda or virtually every single conflict on the planet in the last millennium. Unfortunately, people didn't have it then and they don't have it now in Ukraine.
Now, now, let's not be hasty. I'm pretty sure the religion issues also heavily contributed to making wars happen.
Tensions between various branches of religions (Catholic Christians vs. Orthodox Christians, Catholic Christians vs. Protestant Christians, Sunni Muslims vs. Shia Muslims, etc.) are also very important factors that shouldn't be left out.

For example, in the Grand Duchy of Lithuania and later on in the Rzeczpospolita there was more strife between Catholics and Orthodox believers than between Christians and followers of other religions (Jews and Muslims).
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