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[Helgoland]

So, Owl, you're not opposed to EU-level legislation and institutions as long as subsidiarity is observed and the individual nations retain some, let's be honest, semblance of independence - involving, for example, UN membership and an own military?

[Guardian G.I.]

I originally wanted to post this in the (already dead) post-USSR thread, but I'll post it here very quietly, because it's very important. Hopefully it won't start another Russo-Western holy war like the one in the post-USSR thread. If it happens, though, I promise to abscond from this thread to think about my bad behaviour.

Spoiler: tsst, guys, quiet (click to show/hide)

Yesterday, a large column of Cossack volunteers from Russia showed up in the border town of Antrazit in the Luhansk Region. As they entered the town, they encountered nothing but cheers.
It means bad news for the Ukrainian government - there's a gaping hole in the Russo-Ukrainian border through which volunteers, supplies, weapons and ammunition will be sent to pro-Russian forces. Donetsk and Luhansk are slowly turning into an Eastern European version of Republika Srpska Krajina.


Cossack flag over the town administration building in Antrazit

[Sheb]

What happened to the USSR thread?

[Sergarr]

The thread starter got psyched from all the flame warfare going in the thread and closed it to avoid angering the precious natural resource.

[Arx]

And asked the precious natural resource to look at it, and the precious natural resource agreed. There probably won't be any more Ukraine threads for a while.

[Sheb]

Crap, this forum was a nice source of news. Would you guys be interested in a third-party place to discuss Ukraine?

[scrdest]

Crap, this forum was a nice source of news. Would you guys be interested in a third-party place to discuss Ukraine?

UristMcStation's forum? That's the first Bay12ite forum that springs to my mind.

[Sheb]

Or a mass PM/mailing list?

[Comrade P.]

Crap, this forum was a nice source of news. Would you guys be interested in a third-party place to discuss Ukraine?

DON'T WAKE THE FENRIR!

[smjjames]

Crap, this forum was a nice source of news. Would you guys be interested in a third-party place to discuss Ukraine?

DON'T WAKE THE FENRIR!

FFFEEEEEENNNNNNRRRRRIIIIIIIIIIRRRRRR

Okay just being random.

[Owlbread]

So, Owl, you're not opposed to EU-level legislation and institutions as long as subsidiarity is observed and the individual nations retain some, let's be honest, semblance of independence - involving, for example, UN membership and an own military?

This is my position exactly. When that semblance of independence is revoked, I would elect to leave said union.

[TD1]

So, Owl, you believe in a Northern Ireland free of both Ireland and Great Britain. How does the economical impossibility feature?

[Owlbread]

So, Owl, you believe in a Northern Ireland free of both Ireland and Great Britain. How does the economical impossibility feature?

Well, it's difficult. I'd like to see an independent Northern Ireland in the same way I'd like to see an independent Puerto Rico - economics there comes second to idealism. Maybe if we discussed the topic more at an intellectual level, rather than just united Ireland/sustained partition, we would have more information on how the North would hold up. The problem is that the North is commonly recognised as the UK's costliest region with a deficit at £9 billion - this needs to be addressed regardless of the political future of Northern Ireland.

I would suggest developing the Northern Irish manufacturing base and finding a niche market to become specialists in - Scotland is attempting to do this with renewable energy and shipbuilding. Getting closer to Europe is also a must; whether that's as an independent EU member or as a member of EFTA. Develop a clear, independent policy on the continent, separate from the UK as a whole. Perhaps it would be best to work closer with the Republic on that one, perhaps even acting on some issues as a United Ireland in order to negotiate better deals than the UK. That won't work for everything of course because the Republic is shafted by the EU on a number of fronts. Treat it like Korea does, I think - pick and choose when you want to be known as "Korea" or "South/North Korea" as and when it suits you.

To take a stab at it, I can say that to be "free" does not necessarily mean complete independence. Most countries are dependent on a network of neighbours and close trading partners - people like to call this "interdependence" but it annoys the hell out of me. It is possible for Northern Ireland to be in free-association with the rest of Ireland or the UK - perhaps even creating a unique model where the Northern Irish economy is integrated with the South or the UK and is supported by either the UK or Ireland as it grows, while the Northern government would retain ultimate executive power (UN membership as well etc) and the ability to become totally independent economically the time is right.

The problem here is that I don't understand the Northern Irish economy as well as I do our own. I am not able to make convincing pronouncements on the topic.

[TD1]

What are the benefits?

We make 9 billion, as you rightly pointed out. This is with specialisation withing the airplane industry and cloth. Chicken to a lesser extent, too, as with alcohol (Bushmills Distillery). However, Britain gives us 18 billion. This is with specialisation. So, should we become independent, we would crash and burn. Alliance is essential, either with Britain or Ireland; Neither, may I add, particularly want us, especially Britain. We have ceased to be of industrial relevance, and Ireland is in enough bother. We are a drain.

Besides this, why advocate independence where next to no one seems to want it? Your own separatist ideals simply do not work with Northern Ireland. There is physical violence in Northern Ireland. No sooner is something of importance made, than it is blown up...this deflects trade and investment. Were we improve on this, violence would have to die down..as it has been, slowly. Further partition from Ireland, accompanied by partition from Britain? Do you realise how flammable that would be?

It is your ideal, and noble where it works. It doesn't work with Northern Ireland.

[10ebbor10]

Fun fact, the EU has a  300 million Euro program PEACE program in Northern Ireland. Currently in it's third/ fourth iteration (Third iteration lasted till 2013, I think a fourth iteration is planned.)