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[XXSockXX]

I have heard the "the word 'America' was hijacked by the US" complaint, only by Columbians and other South Americans though. It may or may not be some sort of anti-US point of view, or just a bit of envy about the US getting all the attention.

If you accept the premise that you can be proud of something you didn't achieve yourself (something I have some doubts about), it does make more sense to be proud to be European than to be proud to be American (as in inhabitant of the American continent). Europeans can at least claim a connection to a long history and rich culture that most current Americans could not claim about their own continent.

[Helgoland]

That's the thing - Europe has the common history of Enlightenment to look back on (yes, even Russia), while the American continent has... Not that much, really. America as a continent is just not a sensible political unit.

[TD1]

Well, they do have patriotism. A whole, cart load of indoctrinated patriotism.

[XXSockXX]

Well, they do have patriotism. A whole, cart load of indoctrinated patriotism.

The US does, America as a continent does not.

[TD1]

Well, they do have patriotism. A whole, cart load of indoctrinated patriotism.

The US does, America as a continent does not.

That's what I meant.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Well, they do have patriotism. A whole, cart load of indoctrinated patriotism.

I'd spend time refuting this, but the honest truth is that almost nobody who isn't an American understands the nature of our patriotism. It isn't indoctrination, at least not all of the time. Some people let it blind them, but people can become blinded by just about anything they believe in.

[TD1]

Well, I'm sure your love of country is as natural as anyone else may have, but there is a high level of...help towards patriotism, and I think that quite a few people are blinded by it. If a light blinds a few, better to turn it off and let a milder light shine.

[Owlbread]

There is a difference between North and South. To call both Irish is fine. To associate said word with one culture is not.

But this is the thing - nations seldom have "one culture", only in very few cases are they that homogenous. Our nations here in Britain have countless cultural entities within cultural entities, carrying their own very distinct identities, even different languages, accents, everything. Our cultures are like tapestries.

Perhaps you forget the Ulster Scots, those people that you are probably descended from? They have no cultural tie to that. I can play the bagpipes. I (Used to) wear a kilt in parades. Call it whatever you want, but I prefer when I am spoken of to be called Northern Irish or British, as that is my culture. In fact, let's add in the cultural difference of religion too. And the Huguenots, who I personally am descended from. This makes a cultural blend unique to Northern Ireland and in no way connected to the Republic of Ireland. And let's face it, honestly, when someone says Irish you do not think of bagpipes and the Ulster Scots, do you?

But shouldn't you be trying to challenge that? Can't Ulster Scots exist within a wider Irish identity in the same way that our fellow Scots that went abroad have become Scottish Americans, Scottish Canadians, Scottish Jamaicans, Scottish Argentines, Scottish Brazilians, Scottish Australians...

Of course it is quite possible. But you forget that Northerners are still a part of England. There is no border. Those vocal about being from the "North East" can be if they want. But they are still part of Scotland, and recognise that. There is no border.

But I'm trying to show you that it is possible to be as Northern Irish as you are now within a wider Irish identity. It works in Scotland and it works in England. You're getting really hung up on borders and it saddens me somewhat.

I could call myself Irish...but there is a border. There are separate cultures that are very different, with different religions, faiths and views,

There are people with different religions and faiths all over Ireland. Again, unless religion is intrinsically linked to provinces/countries as some kind of "national characteristic" I don't see what the problem is. There is nothing stopping you from being an Irish Protestant.

as well as legal systems and education systems.

I think that could be preserved in a Federal Irish state, as I advocate. I think Northern Ireland should retain all the autonomy it currently has (perhaps a bit more than they currently have, even) in a United Ireland, but it would be united with the rest of Ulster and the other Irish provinces should get the same level of autonomy as well.

"The problem is" that we are different much more drastically than any one region of Scotland is from the rest. Irish has connotations that strongly aren't Northern Irish, and therefore another term is more prudent. For example Northern Irish, or British.

Northern Ireland is very different to the rest of Ireland, but again, I don't see it as being any more different culturally speaking from the rest of Ireland as the North of England is to the rest of the UK.

[XXSockXX]

That's the thing - Europe has the common history of Enlightenment to look back on (yes, even Russia), while the American continent has... Not that much, really. America as a continent is just not a sensible political unit.

Not only that. Just around where I live there are 4000 year old megaliths, Celtic hill forts and burial mounds, Gallo-Roman oppida and temples, Frankish burial grounds, the oldest church north of the Alps, medieval castles, baroque palaces, fortifications from Napoleanic times and WW2 bunkers. You can find that or equivalents of it on most the continent and it puts yourself into historical perspective in a way that other places just can't.
Compared to that (the vast majority of) America's current inhabitants have no history or culture of their own to speak of.

Well, they do have patriotism. A whole, cart load of indoctrinated patriotism.

I'd spend time refuting this, but the honest truth is that almost nobody who isn't an American understands the nature of our patriotism. It isn't indoctrination, at least not all of the time. Some people let it blind them, but people can become blinded by just about anything they believe in.

I agree on the not understanding part, European patriotism tends to be different from the US variety, so it's easy to misunderstand. It very much is indoctrination though, if you'd grown up in an environment that constantly questions these things you could easily see that.

[smjjames]

There is a difference between North and South. To call both Irish is fine. To associate said word with one culture is not.

But this is the thing - nations seldom have "one culture", only in very few cases are they that homogenous. Our nations here in Britain have countless cultural entities within cultural entities, carrying their own very distinct identities, even different languages, accents, everything. Our cultures are like tapestries.

I suppose at first glance the US might look homogenous, but we're a cultural soup in a very real way. Sure our tapestry is really short (unless you include Native Americans perhaps), but it's just as rich in history* and various heritage as Europe.

*Yes I know the 'written history'** pretty much starts with Columbus.

**The Maya and Aztecs did have writing and Maya books actually did exist during the colonial period, until the Spanish decided that it was all heresy and burned them. So, their history doesn't have as much documentation.

[smjjames]

That's the thing - Europe has the common history of Enlightenment to look back on (yes, even Russia), while the American continent has... Not that much, really. America as a continent is just not a sensible political unit.

Not only that. Just around where I live there are 4000 year old megaliths, Celtic hill forts and burial mounds, Gallo-Roman oppida and temples, Frankish burial grounds, the oldest church north of the Alps, medieval castles, baroque palaces, fortifications from Napoleanic times and WW2 bunkers. You can find that or equivalents of it on most the continent and it puts yourself into historical perspective in a way that other places just can't.
Compared to that (the vast majority of) America's current inhabitants have no history or culture of their own to speak of.

Well, theres the Native Americans, Aztecs, Maya, and Inca....

You are correct though in that the European part of that history in the Americas is insignificant compared to the millenia of accumulated history in Eruasia.

[smjjames]

There is a difference between North and South. To call both Irish is fine. To associate said word with one culture is not.

But this is the thing - nations seldom have "one culture", only in very few cases are they that homogenous. Our nations here in Britain have countless cultural entities within cultural entities, carrying their own very distinct identities, even different languages, accents, everything. Our cultures are like tapestries.

I suppose at first glance the US might look homogenous, but we're a cultural soup in a very real way. Sure our tapestry is really short (unless you include Native Americans perhaps), but it's just as rich in history* and various heritage as Europe.

*Yes I know the 'written history'** pretty much starts with Columbus.

**The Maya and Aztecs did have writing and Maya books actually did exist during the colonial period, until the Spanish decided that it was all heresy and burned them. So, their history doesn't have as much documentation.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6hijsqO8H0

What exactly are you implying?

[Owlbread]

I suppose at first glance the US might look homogenous, but we're a cultural soup in a very real way. Sure our tapestry is really short (unless you include Native Americans perhaps), but it's just as rich in history* and various heritage as Europe.

I always try to use the USA and Canada as examples of successful modern-day civic nationalism where countless ethnic groups and cultural groups can get together behind an umbrella-identity of American/Canadian.

Ulster Scots fearing cultural absorption should take heed.

[XXSockXX]

Well, theres the Native Americans, Aztecs, Maya, and Inca....

You are correct though in that the European part of that history in the Americas is insignificant compared to the millenia of accumulated history in Eruasia.

Though I would question how much you can include Native Americans into that. Most European patriotism is ethnicity-based, so you can actually claim (genetics kind of supports that though nationalists never really bothered with it anyway) to be a descendent of the people who "did" all the history, which most Americans can't. Many Americans seem to view it that way too, trying to establish or maintain some kind of European legacy in their family history.

[misko27]

I was jokingly implying that Europe has the whole history.

Not just American of course. African History, Asian History, all history.

Owlbread, you reminded me of a Colbert interview where he briefly rages about the Scots-Irish before challenging the old lady he was interviewing to an arm wrestle.

Well, theres the Native Americans, Aztecs, Maya, and Inca....

You are correct though in that the European part of that history in the Americas is insignificant compared to the millenia of accumulated history in Eruasia.

Though I would question how much you can include Native Americans into that. Most European patriotism is ethnicity-based, so you can actually claim (genetics kind of supports that though nationalists never really bothered with it anyway) to be a descendent of the people who "did" all the history, which most Americans can't. Many Americans seem to view it that way too, trying to establish or maintain some kind of European legacy in their family history.

Now see, I'm American, so obviously I'm indoctrinated and should be ignored, but ethnic nationalism has always struck me as a bad thing, not a good one. Of course, Europe has such a positive history with ethnic nationalism, I'm just crazy. But bear in mind a lot of America isn't European you know.