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Author Topic: Sheb's European Megathread: Remove Feta!  (Read 1783283 times)

MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #4620 on: April 09, 2014, 12:32:01 pm »

Well, you've got attention. No one wants independence. So, why not democratically try to change the system instead of just jump out of it?
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MonkeyHead

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #4621 on: April 09, 2014, 12:39:31 pm »

Parties in Scotland, Wales and NI have constantly tried (and with more regularity since devolution) to attempt to get a fairer deal for those of us living in one of the "minor provinces" of the UK via democratic processes. It often doesn't go very well - as an example, since devolution, we have seen budgets offered to public services here in Wales fall way below what Westminster offers to identical services in England on a per capita basis. Can you blame us "junior partners" for having had enough? Simply put, we are sick of having interests relevant to our nations being railroaded by "weight of numbers" in Westminster. Why should an MP for the Midlands have a say on issues affecting NI, Scotland or Wales? The votes of MP's from NI, Scotland or Wales don't really have that much of an impact in the greater scheme of things with regards England in any case - the large number of non-Tory MP's returned to Westminster by the 3 nations in question do not prevent England still returning a Tory government to rule over us.

Owlbread

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #4622 on: April 09, 2014, 12:46:11 pm »


By the way, remember Ming Campbell's comments on how febrile and unpleasant the debate has become? He may have been waving a finger at "the nationalists" when he said that but have a look at what Lord George Robertson, Labour Party peer and former Secretary General of NATO had to say about independence the other day in a speech in the USA.

Quote from: BBC
Speaking in the US, Lord Robertson said a "debilitating divorce" after a "Yes" vote in September would threaten the stability of the wider world.

He said he believed the US administration was worried about the possibility of Scottish independence.

This is a quote from his speech:

Quote from: Lord George Robertson, Baron Robertson of Port Ellen
"If the United Kingdom was to face a split at this of all times and find itself embroiled for several years in a torrid, complex, difficult and debilitating divorce, it would rob the West of a serious partner just when solidity and cool nerves are going to be vital. Nobody should underestimate the effect all of that would have on existing global balances and the forces of darkness would simply love it."

Scottish Independence will be a victory for the forces of darkness. A "cataclysm", no less. You've heard it from a former Secretary General of NATO, folks.

Even Labour's in-house paper in Scotland, the Daily Record, pulled no punches in a highly critical editorial on the speech today.

Also, as a final point of interest for any American fellows here, Alex Salmond appeared on NBC the other day.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2014, 01:05:52 pm by Owlbread »
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mainiac

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #4623 on: April 09, 2014, 01:12:43 pm »

Scottish Independence will be a victory for the forces of darkness. A "cataclysm", no less. You've heard it from a former Secretary General of NATO, folks.

If Scotland becomes independent, Edinburgh will develop a financial services industry like New York or London or Dublin.  That means yet another safe haven for vampires.  That means more innocent teenagers attacked for their blood and more power for the forces of darkness, bringing the cataclysm closer.

That's just econ 101.
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« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
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TD1

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #4624 on: April 09, 2014, 02:00:30 pm »

Dwarves don't get eaten by Owl Bread! Dwarves eat bread, and care not if there happens to be an owl in it! As for arguments, I sense either my side of the argument is useless (In which case, I wish you best of luck) or I'm simply incapable of expressing it (In this case, I still wish you the best of luck in your democratic pursuit, but will disagree) Seeing as I can't really tell which is which, I'll simply wish you luck and be done with it  :P
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #4625 on: April 09, 2014, 02:01:58 pm »

I've tried to find some polling data to suggest the general American opinion on Scottish Independence, and....nothing. I'm pretty sure this data just doesn't exist.

Also, Alex Salmond appeared on Wall Street Journal too, though not for very long. Apparently he sees America as the most optimistic country in the world (kind of a strange stereotype, I've got to admit), and that kind of optimism as a necessity for independence.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2014, 02:03:29 pm by MetalSlimeHunt »
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Descan

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #4626 on: April 09, 2014, 02:16:58 pm »

If no one wants independence, then why the hell did they all vote for the party explicitly saying "We're going to give you independence"? First a minority government, then a majority government.
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TD1

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #4627 on: April 09, 2014, 02:18:53 pm »

If no one wants independence, then why the hell did they all vote for the party explicitly saying "We're going to give you independence"? First a minority government, then a majority government.

But...the propaganda looked so good!  :P
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mainiac

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #4628 on: April 09, 2014, 02:44:57 pm »

If no one wants independence, then why the hell did they all vote for the party explicitly saying "We're going to give you independence"? First a minority government, then a majority government.

Because of the limitations of the democratic system.  If I feel like my region is getting neglected, I might vote for the regional party that is separatist even if I don't care about separatism.  Voting doesn't let people express nuances, they can just support tilting the scale one way or another.  This is why everytime the pro-choice democrats gain power a block of the american votes becomes pro-life and why everytime the pro-life republicans gain power they change their mind and become pro-choice.
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« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
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Owlbread

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #4629 on: April 09, 2014, 02:54:58 pm »

Because of the limitations of the democratic system.  If I feel like my region is getting neglected, I might vote for the regional party that is separatist even if I don't care about separatism.  Voting doesn't let people express nuances, they can just support tilting the scale one way or another.  This is why everytime the pro-choice democrats gain power a block of the american votes becomes pro-life and why everytime the pro-life republicans gain power they change their mind and become pro-choice.

The SNP's massive victory was built on a lot of "tactical voters" who decided to vote SNP for the reasons you gave, but also a large number voted for them because they felt that they were good in government. There are lots of reasons why people like the SNP and why they are still the most popular party in Scotland by far, despite having been in government since 2007 and despite the referendum and all the divisions it has caused.

The SNP hoped that they could convert just enough of that positive opinion surrounding them into support for independence; whether or not they have been successful in that endeavour remains to be seen. I think though judging by the shift in recent opinion polls they may be more successful in September than a lot of people have given them credit.

However, as Descan says the very existence of the SNP as a mainstream political party is predicated on independence being a mainstream political idea. That is the case right now due to that unbreakable third of the population that are in favour of independence come rain or shine.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2014, 02:56:57 pm by Owlbread »
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smjjames

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #4630 on: April 09, 2014, 03:10:48 pm »

I haven't heard anything about our government being concerned about Scottish independence and I bet the British parliament in the 17th century gave the same sort of 'doom and gloom' speech about the US wanting to become independent.

Maybe those brits are just trying to keep together what is left of the 'Glorious British Empire'.
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TD1

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #4631 on: April 09, 2014, 03:13:39 pm »

No one really sees it as a "Glorious British Empire."

In fact, Britain originally took over countries in order to stabilise them and ensure future trade. And it does say something that there is a common wealth at all. Democratically countries voting to remain within the Commonwealth suggests it wasn't all that bad.
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #4632 on: April 09, 2014, 03:14:07 pm »

Maybe those brits are just trying to keep together what is left of the 'Glorious British Empire'.
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Owlbread

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #4633 on: April 09, 2014, 03:30:16 pm »

In fact, Britain originally took over countries in order to stabilise them and ensure future trade.

Yes, that's exactly what happened. We didn't conquer and colonise their lands and steal their resources and destroy their cultures, we just civilised them. Made them stable. That's why Africa is such a prime example of stability in the world, isn't it?
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mainiac

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #4634 on: April 09, 2014, 03:31:19 pm »

I think though judging by the shift in recent opinion polls they may be more successful in September than a lot of people have given them credit.

Multi-party/issue elections are notoriously difficult to predict but I think the fundamentals are against the Scottish movement here.  Labour has benefited immensely from being in the wilderness while the Conservatives have presided over a weak economy and the LDs seem to be actively trying to destroy their own party.  I expect Labour to sweep and that's bad for SNIP, because left wing Scottish voters are going to be less inclined to support independence if they are seeing Labour coasting to victory then if they expect a conservative win.  For this reason I wouldn't read too heavily into the short term fluctuation in the polls unless there is a bigger shift over a longer term then we've seen so far.
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« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
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