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[Dutchling]

They're close enough.
Southern in this context is just Spain, Portugal, Italy, Greece, and to a lesser extent, France.
That's the stereotype here at least.
South = Lazy
East = Poor

[Loud Whispers]

Southern Europeans are inherently lazy and unproductive?

France is southern?

Everyone's a southerner somewhere.

Spain, Portugal, Italy, Greece, and to a lesser extent, France.
That's the stereotype here at least.
South = Lazy
East = Poor

It's a mix. Greece and Italy had retirement ages that would make anyone in the UK flabbergasted (although people in the UK do work the longest years in Europe, so take that of what you will), and Spain and Portugal have workers take breaks because of the weather (which their French and Gibraltan neighbours work through anyways). Haven't heard of a stereotype of French not working well before though.

[Dutchling]

Their slow bureaucracy?

[Descan]

I think it's an offshoot from the surrendering thing.

[Guardian G.I.]

I think it's an offshoot from the surrendering thing.

IIRC, it's because of the tendency of French workers and trade union members to start strikes if they don't like something. It's really bad for capitalists.

[10ebbor10]

Yeah, Unions are quite strong in France.

[WarRoot]

Never heard that the French are lazy only that they are gay (explains why they have to steal children from other countries, to keep up the population, trollollolo).

In other news totally unrelated to the current discussion, the Forces of Light will battle the Forces of Darkness in Hungary tomorrow.

[Sheb]

Funnily enough, those lazy southerners actually works more than the Germans or Dutch.

[Helgoland]

I thought the cliche was that France was incredibly bureaucratic and privilege-riddled...

[mainiac]

I thought the cliche was that France was incredibly bureaucratic and privilege-riddled...

And yet somehow that horrible bureaucracy is capable of making the worlds best healthcare system and being the country that really makes nuclear energy work, and through a state planned approach to boot.

I think the Japan in the 70s and 80s is a pretty apt comparison here.  When the exports are doing well people give them outsized importance and project the stereotype to the culture as a whole.  But when France passes Germany, which it will due to demographic shifts, the legend of the German economic might will be forgotten as quickly as 1000 years of French military domination was.  The Japanese domestic services and agriculture that are now famously inefficient and bloated aren't a new development, but the way they are blamed is.  I doubt that France will get noticeably better or Germany noticeably worse but the narrative sure is going to change.

[XXSockXX]

I thought the cliche was that France was incredibly bureaucratic and privilege-riddled...

And yet somehow that horrible bureaucracy is capable of making the worlds best healthcare system and being the country that really makes nuclear energy work, and through a state planned approach to boot.

That's because it's a cliche, so it's not exactly true. In my experience French bureaucracy is about as horrible as ours, just different.

I think the Japan in the 70s and 80s is a pretty apt comparison here.  When the exports are doing well people give them outsized importance and project the stereotype to the culture as a whole.  But when France passes Germany, which it will due to demographic shifts, the legend of the German economic might will be forgotten as quickly as 1000 years of French military domination was.  The Japanese domestic services and agriculture that are now famously inefficient and bloated aren't a new development, but the way they are blamed is.  I doubt that France will get noticeably better or Germany noticeably worse but the narrative sure is going to change.

German economic power is rooted in the 19th century, when Germany started having enormous population growth, while France was rather shrinking throughout the century, so of course that could be reversed at some point in the future.
France should pass Germany in population around 2050, if current growth/shrinking trends continue. What effects that will have is an entirely different matter. Both France and Germany are not exactly well prepared for the coming demographic changes, the welfare systems become increasingly difficult to finance, which has a lot of potential for social strife in the future. France is incredibly difficult to reform and Germany seems to be moving away from the cutback policies of recent years, possibly on the backs of the younger generation though.
Also there is a lot of potential for cultural unrest in France, the current birth rates are at least partially due to muslim and/or african immigrant families having higher birth rates. This has created a weird climate with both riots by disenfranchised immigrant youth and a political rise of nationalist far-righters.
So while France has a lot of potential, it has a lot of problems too, and I doubt the current government has any ideas how to solve them.

[mainiac]

Reform reform reform.  You guys say the same word about every country that isn't your own.

Y'know the US is outperforming Germany economically.  You don't hear us endlessly yammering about how you guys need to reform reform reform.  In fact Americans love to talk about the problems we have.

[XXSockXX]

Reform reform reform.  You guys say the same word about every country that isn't your own.

Y'know the US is outperforming Germany economically.  You don't hear us endlessly yammering about how you guys need to reform reform reform.  In fact Americans love to talk about the problems we have.

The US has completely different problems than Europe, so that's a different matter. It has neither the demographic problems Europe has, nor the problem to finance extensive welfare systems, nor the potential for social unrest caused by unemployment (which even in Germany is only seemingly low).
Also while Germany has had some reforms, it still would need some more to be able to cope with demographic shifts in the future. That seems less likely to happen with current political trends, as I said above.

[mainiac]

The US has completely different problems than Europe, so that's a different matter. It has neither the demographic problems Europe has, nor the problem to finance extensive welfare systems, nor the potential for social unrest caused by unemployment (which even in Germany is only seemingly low).
Also while Germany has had some reforms, it still would need some more to be able to cope with demographic shifts in the future. That seems less likely to happen with current political trends, as I said above.

Yeah comparing the US to Germany willy nilly would be silly.

[XXSockXX]

Yeah comparing the US to Germany willy nilly would be silly.

Of course it would be. The US is a much larger country (also in terms of population and resources) with completely different social, political and economical structures.
In turn that means that it is problematic to take something that works well for the US and apply it to Germany (or other European countries) or vice versa.
Certainly no European country has the ability to bounce back from near-bankruptcy as often and frequently as the US, which seems to be flexible enough to do that several times in recent years. Something like that government shutdown last autumn would have quite the horrifying consequences here, I guess.